Numbers of gifted persons and organizations have studied the phenomenon of the church “back door,” the metaphorical way we describe people leaving the church. And there will always be the anticipated themes of relocation or personal crises. We should recognize those issues, though we can respond to the latter more than the former.
But all the research studies of which I am aware, including my own, return to one major theme to explain the exodus of church members: a sense of some need not being filled. In other words, these members have ideas of what a local congregation should provide for them, and they leave because those provisions have not been met.
Certainly, we recognize there are many legitimate claims by church members of unfulfilled expectations. It can undoubtedly be the fault of the local congregation and its leaders.
But many times, probably more than we would like to believe, a church member leaves a local body because he or she has a sense of entitlement. I would therefore suggest that the main reason people leave a church is because they have an entitlement mentality rather than a servant mentality.
Look at some of the direct quotes from exit interviews of people who left local congregations:
- “The worship leader refused to listen to me about the songs and music I wanted.”
- “The pastor did not feed me.”
- “No one from my church visited me.”
- “I was not about to support the building program they wanted.”
- “I was out two weeks and no one called me.”
- “They moved the times of the worship services and it messed up my schedule.”
- “I told my pastor to go visit my cousin and he never did.”
Please hear me clearly. Church members should expect some level of ministry and concern. But, for a myriad of reasons beyond the scope of this one article, we have turned church membership into country club membership. You pay your dues and you are entitled to certain benefits.
The biblical basis of church membership is clear in Scripture. The Apostle Paul even uses the “member” metaphor to describe what every believer should be like in a local congregation. In 1 Corinthians 12:12-31, Paul describes church members not by what they should receive in a local church, but by the ministry they should give.
The solution to closing the back door, at least a major part of the solution, is therefore to move members from an entitlement mentality to a servant mentality. Of course, it is easy for me to write about it, but it is a greater challenge to effect it.
May I then offer a few steps of a more practical nature to help close the back door by changing the membership mentality? Here are five:
- Inform church members. Though I do not have precise numbers, I would conjecture that more than one-half of church members do not have a biblical understanding of church membership. Providing that information in a new members’ class can move an entire congregation toward a servant mentality.
- Raise the bar of expectations. We have dumbed down church membership in many congregations to where it has little meaning. Clarify expectations of members. Again, doing so in the context of a new members’ class is a great way to begin.
- Mentor members. Take two or three members and begin to mentor them to become biblical church members. After a season, ask them to mentor two or three as well. Let the process grow exponentially.
- Train members. Almost 100 percent of pastors agree that their role is to train and equip members. But almost three-fourths of these pastors have no plans on how they will train them (see Ephesians 4:11-13). I will address this issue more fully on my blog next Wednesday.
- Encourage people to be in small groups. Those in Sunday school classes and small groups are more likely to be informed and functioning church members. In other words, there is a much greater likelihood of a member with a servant mentality being in a small group than not.
What are you doing in your church to close the back door? What are you doing to move members from an entitlement mentality to a servant mentality?
Posted on January 21, 2013
With nearly 40 years of ministry experience, Thom Rainer has spent a lifetime committed to the growth and health of local churches across North America.
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588 Comments
Rarely have I read a more arrogant post. If this is the mindset of any lead pastor, this will naturally become the attitude of all staff members. What this demonstrates is a lack of love & a servant attitude of leaders. With this being the predominate attitude, it fosters an ‘us against them’ in the body of Christ. With the above attitude, leaders are apt to admit error or learn a Christ-like servants heart. Exactly the opposite of what you are determined to teach your ‘servants’….
Liz –
I do hope my heart was not arrogant when I wrote this post. I do know, however, that I am a sinner who often strays. I pray that God will show me where my heart is wrong here.
Mr. Rainer, I cannot agree with Liz. While I do not know her and cannot say what her personality is, my first thought regarding her is this.
I get the strong impression that she is one of the persons that would leave because the ‘leaders’ of the congregation are not meeting her needs. If I am wrong in that impression, I apologize.
Whoa Liz…Be careful you’re not bringing in some emotional baggage from somewhere else and unloading it on Thom. I read Thom’s blog and did not come away with any of what you just wrote.
Liz hit the nail on the head. I have a family member that is a pastor and he will freely tell you he is only concerned with what his congregants can do for him.
Liz is absolutely right. This article is horrendous. Thom is completely out of touch with why people leave churches. He is writing about something he clearly has no experience in.
Dr. Rainer,
This was something I recently discussed with my fellow elders (and turned into a blogpost today). I think there needs to be clear understanding of what it means to be a covenant member of a local church. I know that church covenants are coming back into evangelical life (which is huge IMO), but how are they being employed? Are they functionally having conscious implications on how members think and live?
What you mentioned as the entitlement mentality, I referred to viewing their commitment to the church as a contract – meaning that whenever the conditions are not met to their satisfaction, they feel justified in leaving the church. Covenant members don’t think this way. They are bound to one another like family. They know disappointments, frustrations, and heartaches will happen. They choose to engage with grace and forgiveness rather leaving with bitterness and sin. In other words, when members learn to live on the basis of the gospel (one of repentance and faith) as opposed to self-absorption, we enter into the front door of each other’s lives and don’t entertain the back door of the church.
Thanks for writing this helpful article! Oh, and here’s my article FWIW –
http://timmybrister.com/2013/01/church-covenant-or-church-contract/
Good word Tim. I just read your blogpost. It is excellent. I encourage my readers to read it.
Excellent post.
Jesus had the same issues. Crowds followed him to get more food, not to selflessly serve as His disciples (John 6:26).
Even large numbers of His own disciples left when they couldn’t cope with the difficulty of His teachings (John 6:66).
Jesus never chased after these people for fear that numbers would diminish, but listened to His Father and refused to be distracted by the pressures to conform to worldly popularity.
Thank you.
I cant totally agree with you here….We left the church my husbands family had attended for many decades because the church fell away from biblical truth….we felt we had no choice to leave when the church become so liberal with it’s own doctrines and totally disengaged itself from the gospel.
Donna –
Please note that I did say there are valid reasons for leaving a church, and your reason is certainly valid.
Thank you for taking time to comment.
The reasons identified in this post would lead me to suspect that the folks who are leaving did not and do not understand the concept of being a Christ-follower. They received the Word gladly but never understood that it wasn’t about their needs. For that, the local church has only itself to blame. In my experience (50 + years) we have called them to ‘come to church’ and then we wonder why they didn’t also become faithful disciples. It’s essentially a bait and switch model. We enable and encourage the form because we fear too many will leave if we call them to genuinely follow the Master. Psst, they leave anyway! In the meantime, even those who stay are often crippled in their faith.
While individual circumstances may affect things, Terry’s comment regarding empowering their people, should be taken to heart. This is precisely because, genuine Christ-followers will want and expect to be involved. If it’s about filling slots in the church programs, there will never be enough slots for everyone to fill. If it’s about equipping disciples to minister and make disciples, there will be an unlimited opportunity. Churches that only value and/or recognize formal ministry directly related to their programs will face two issues. The slightly interested will lose interest and the committed disciples will naturally leave for places that will encourage Kingdom building instead of kingdom building.
The churches are more in crisis today because the generation that thought they should be committed to the ‘local assembly’ no matter what is aging. Christ followers are committed to the Kingdom no matter what and that may mean that churches who live to perpetuate themselves may matter far less in the future.
Boom! Preach it Thom!
Thanks Hunter!
Before I make my comment, let me give some brief background. I have been a believer for over 25 years and a member of three different Baptist churches since 1987. I am a bible college and seminary graduate (B.A; M.A,MDiv).
How about people leaving a church because they are not being used? That is the case I am currently in. I was teaching an Adult Bible Fellowship and then I was replaced with no warning or explanation. I have never been asked to fill the pulpit. It is tough because I spent several years getting my education and never thought I would be on the “sidelines” for three years after my seminary graduation. i will fulfill my responsibilities, but when they are completed, II will leave, unless something changes. What is strange is that our church houses a seminary within its complex.
I would rather find a church where I can be used rather than be penalized for being a seminary graduate.
Terry –
Being involved in ministry is absolutely critical to closing the back door.
Many times I found the ones running a certain ministry is not looking for others to join or help – no matter how many times you say or ask. What do you do then? Been a active church member for 10 years always there when service happens.
Terry,
I could not agree with you more. Going through something very similar, I have learned that there are a variety of reasons why this is happening. Whatever the case is, your church should have offered you a staff position and called on you to fill the pulpit whenever needed. A real church would have done this.
One thing you can take a look at though. Since churches and leadership tend to be consistent on issues like this, take a look at other examples in the church of how they are equiping people for ministry. You may find, that your church only gives lip service to training and equiping for ministry, even with a seminary housed on the campus.
Also, I am curious. Is your church a small church of less than 100 or is it a large church. I am under the impression that the smaller the church, the less likely you will ever be used for ministry to the capacity in whuch you are able.
Yes. It could be you do have your degrees. Yet, is it simply the pulpit, where you feel the razzle dazzle? As in construction. When a person knows how to do all the little things. That person, will never be without work.
Roy,
In my case, the issue of the pulpit was simply the most visable public blazing sign stating that the church was not interested in supporting someone called to ministry. Additionally, to use the construction analagy, my case is one of being the skilled laborer being passed over for someone who is not even expected to be on the jobsite.
Its’ all power plays anymore. Our church is very small, and the entire worship team consists of the Pastor’s family! Good luck breaking in to that! Pastor is great at preaching sermons, but not much else. He never even shows up to most of the church’s special events.
Adam, I would be very slow to make statements like, “My Pastor is great at preaching sermons, but no much else.” To bring such a damning charge upon one who will give account over your soul is not from the Spirit. Do you pray weekly for your Pastor & his family? You need to seek reconciliation with your Pastor in person & not anonymously trash him in a blog. We don’t know who he is or even who you are, but God certainly does. Seek peace & forgiveness in person & if you feel he has sinned against you then express that to him in an appropriate setting.
Brent,
Where in the Bible does it say a pastor will give an account of your soul? As Baptists, we agree with scripture that we are a priesthood of believers… that means no priest, pastor or minister is going to be giving any account on your behalf.
Since I don’t know Adam’s church, I’m not going to pass judgement on him at all. He is the one there and while I believe there is some value in being faithful to your pastor, I have seen way too many in ministry because no one wants to tell them they are terrible in ministry… and in some cases, should be disqualified and fired because of their personal lives.
Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.”
Pastors, Like mine, yours & Adam’s, will give an account to the Lord one day for their service of shepherding the souls that have been entrusted to the flock they tend to. Of course every believer is accountable for their own soul before the Lord, but as the shepherd of that local flock, that local shepherd will give an account for his service and shepherding. This is a totally different subject than the priesthood of believers. Therefore if Adam has a conflict or sees a dangerous blind spot then he should in gentleness and love alert his shepherd rather than carry what appears to be a sizable enough concern that he would burn him in front of an anonymous audience, yet not approach that man to his face. That my brother is what I am referring too. In Christ,
Brent
Thanks for the clarification Brent… though we are both fluent in English, this terrible language can be confusing.
My advice to Adam is to bring your concerns up to your pastor. However, if the leadership in your church has not brought it up, they are either ok with the status quo or simply have no idea what should be expected of a pastor.
If the latter is true, no amount of input from you will make a difference… It is ok to go and serve somewhere else.
Terry and Jason,
I can understand your frustrations with feeling overlooked or believing you’re being denied opportunities for more significant ministry. But have you gone to your pastor(s) and humbly asked why they have seemingly bypassed or overlooked you? Let me gently encourage you to focus on servant ministry needs that are readily available to you and not expect to be promoted to the higher seat of public ministry.
I do appreciate your perspective on this Pete and I have done this. It is not about an unreasonable expectation for promotion. It’s about being allowed to serve, especially in areas of ministry that are not being served in any meaningful way. Fortunately, when I did take my concerns to the pastor, he at least made it a priority to fill the pulpit in his absence from within our church.
Unfortunately, many churches have the same problem. It’s related to the issue of what educational qualifications churches require of their senior pastors, an MDiv or higher, but a total lack of willingness to help college and seminary students accomplish this… including providing for practicum and internship requirements. Generally, churches that are like this often have a low expectation of discipleship over all. By the way, our seminary here in California does not allow students to take out Federal Stafford loans, a policy I agree with, but it’s difficult to move through seminary without minimal financial support from your home church.
Up until about a year ago, I thought this second back door was unique to small churches, but after some conversations with several church planters, I discovered that many youth ministers of medium sized churches leave to become church planters for the same reasons… but again, it’s not about promotion, its about restraints that are driven by placing church growth over evangelism and discipleship… which, oddly enough, hurts church growth growth.
As for me, I am moving into church planting now. However, since my calling still is (and I suspect will remain) youth and student ministries, I am actively recruiting possible bi-lingual pastors to reach communities in my area of California… with whom I can serve as part of a team.
Jason…Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You have helped me become better informed on an issue that I have not personally experienced, but can now better relate to. I also am a church planter and am happy to hear of God’s leading in your life.
Yes, I have and did not get a straight answer.
Was thinking about your comment. Are you thinking about leaving that church because you are not feeling used there, or not being used in pulpit ministry? I do understand the frustration of working hard to prepare for a specific ministry, and then not be able to do it. Was just wondering. I will be praying for you that God guides you into His perfect will for your life and that He uses you to fulfill the exact purpose for which He created you.
Yes, I am thinking about leaving precisely because I am not being used and because I am not getting any support from the church with regard to going into full-time ministry. I have completed my seminary training back in 2010. A well-trained seminary graduate should not be on the sidelines in any church.
Hello Terry,
I think you should know that you are never on the sidelines. Their are always opportunities for you to share the gospel on your own time ,and seek and save the lost. We have to understand that we are the church and the “church” is not just some building we go to. God might have you on the sidelines for a reason. Jesus says to exalt yourself and you will be humbled , but If you humble your self you will be exalted. We have to understand that the church is not a worldly business. So just because I have a seminary degree doesn’t mean I should be running the church, even though I know you didn’t exactly mean it that way. It’s God’s church and its all about where He wants you, Jeremaiah 29:11. So , fast and pray and Ask God where exactly he wants you to minister and He will show you. I don’t think that you should leave your church unless God clearly directs you and you hear directly from Him(Holy Spirit). Amen. I hope that encourages you.
God bless!!!
I understand the feeling. About ten years ago the local church I was in put up walls in every single ministry I could have helped in with my past experience, talents, interests, and gift-set (children’s, worship team, missionary trips, assistant art teacher for summer programs, etc.) After years of trying to find a place to serve, reaching out to various ministries, talking with the minister in charge of finding people a place to serve, etc. I gave up. They were only interested in letting me join the Greet team since I was an unmarried woman at the time (while I wouldn’t mind filling in temporarily if there was a need, there clearly was *not* a need there as over a dozen people did it every week and the faces changed frequently. Plus, as an introvert and with it not fitting my giftset it would have meant burnout long-term.)
Instead, I found a couple parachurch ministries to serve in (eBible, Dress a Girl) which allowed me to use my spiritual gifts and serve on a regular basis. Shortly after, I started attending a different local church and found countless opportunities to serve both regularly with my gifts and to fill in for sudden needs.
If you’ve tried various avenues and are still finding doors for you shutting at your church group, it might be time to pray and consider if God wants you in a parachurch ministry or to reach out to other local churches that might need help. The Holy Spirit gave us gifts to use them for equipping the church. If a church group isn’t allowing you to use those gifts in any capacity, or to work with you to see how they can be used, then it isn’t a healthy place.
Good grief Terry, how very sad your story is. Come to our church! We’ll put you right to work! I’m an officer in the Salvation Army and we put all soldiers (members) to work! Find a Salvation Army congregation and you’ll not be sorry. But if you’re close to Annapolis, MD join us and a myriad of service ministries that desperately need leaders with education and experience. I don’t understand how you’re not being utilized! It’s crazy. I’ll be praying for you 🙂 blessings!
Thanks for the offer, I wish I was closer to Annapolis, MD!
i agree to a certain extent. I can understand the hurt of being replaced without any warning. That certainly wasn’t handled right. my question is how large is the church? How many seminary students attend there? Could it be a case where it would be difficult for the pastor to let every seminary student fill the pulpit. Not trying too be critical
just trying to look at it through a pastor’s eyes.
Church is about 680. I have been here almost 11 years. I finished seminary in 2010. There are maybe three current students that attend here. I am one of a few who have finished their seminary training and are still here. There is one man who went to another seminary and also has an MDiv.
I am not talking about filling the pulpit with a student, but why not use people that have finished their training and are waiting for a place to serve. Brian Croft from practicalshepherding.com talks in several articles about affirming men who are in your church and have completed their formal education.
I have never once asked to ever fill a pulpit, but I am beginning to wonder if I never preach where I am currently a member, then how can the pastor or staff give any kind of honest recommendation of my preaching?
Churches are looking for men with experience and it is a catch-22 of sorts. If you have no experience, then they will not hire you. I interviewed with a church a few months ago that was ready to hire me, but they had some serious theological issues that I do not think they were willing to budge on, including having someone on the pulpit committee that was not qualified for church leadership. Churches will ask for sermon recordings, it is quite embarrassing to send them a sermon from 2008 because I do not have anything more recent.
I had thought about going on for further education (ThM, PhD or DMin), competition was too great at the ThM and PhD level and I got rejected from a different seminary. Was going to go the DMin route and found out I can’t get in because I do not have any post-MDiv vocational ministry experience.
Terry,
I think you are hitting on something that is very relavant to our situations. One thing I have discovered with churches in the SF Bay Area connected with GGBTS, a Southern Baptist Seminary… these churches are very open to creating associate pastoral positions in their churches for seminary students who either need to be involved in minsitry for course requirements or for final placement and “integration” into ministry. On the other hand, where I am, 230 miles south of SF, pastors and churches are completely unaware of this need. It is not uncommon that people with a BA in Biblical studies and ministry or an MDiv will be overlooked.
The main problem here is you can have a degree or an MDiv and 10+ years of experience in ministry, but if the church you are with right now does not even offer you an internship, you have little cahnce of being called by a search committee to serve elsewhere.
The only way to break this is make yourself available to pastors that you know… and make yourself available for both short term internships as well as long term permanent ministries.
Hey everyone,
I have read your post and sympathize for your desire to be involved. I have been in the ministry for twenty years now. I do not have a degree but I know I was called to preach. Every time I wanted to go to seminary something always blocked my path. It was finances, family and even health issues. My bible is all I need to proclaim the gospel. I love God’s word and cannot study it enough. It is a craving, a hunger and a thirst for me. Some of the bigger churches were unwilling to allow me to speak but I hold no ill will toward them. I love the church. The key to a servant attitude is to follow the Holy Spirit. No matter what we have done, none of us are entitled to anything. It is not about us, it is about Jesus. I wish you guys were in Mississippi. I would certainly put you to work. I am very concerned about our country and the path it has taken over the past few years. Let me encourage you to follow your heart and bloom where you are planted. No one said it would be easy. I stand upon God’s promise that He will never fail me nor forsake me. Be willing to go wherever He leads you. I will keep you in my prayers. May God direct your path and bless your journey.
Hi Paul. Thank you so much for your encouraging words. And I feel you are right, all you need to teach or preach the true gospel is the Word. Have a blessed day and keep doing what you do. Love in Christ, Valerie.
Your analysis agrees with my experience. Related to helping people change that attitude is keeping them in the church long enough to allow that to happen. If they are not made to feel welcome in the church by intentionally including them in the activities of the church and treating them as a valuable member they will not want to stay long. As an associate in one church much of my time was spent greeting everyone, talking to them and taking an interest in them. During that 4 years the church grew and we lost only one or two families to other churches. I did relate to the people as a “method” but simply because I truly love people even the ones that aren’t always lovable. The senior pastor made it a point to acknowledge new people and any noteworthy events in peoples lives and I kept him informed of such things.
Thanks Tom. Your role in ministry there was invaluable. I am thankful for your servant mentality.
Very helpful. Thank you.
Thanks Terrell .
This is a “Leadership Issue” not a “Congregation Issue”. The church is in a leadership crisis. We have plenty of pastors who can lead from a platform through teaching and preaching but do little else to connect with their people throughout the week. A pastor can’t do it alone. Let’s grow leaders who can implement the model Moses learned in Exodus 18 and build leadership capacity within our congregations to meet the needs of our people in a personal way. It seems to me that the church has developed most of its programs around “come to us” in stead of the mandate to “go and multiply”? Multiply leaders who will go outside the walls of the church 168 hours each week to meet people where they are and “The Church” will grow.
Amen Brother!
Thank you Steve.
Well said Dave.
I agree that it is a leadership issue. My experience indicates that on the average, pastors jump congregations with a frequency that is not much better than the lay membership. How can a pastor lead the charge for long term committment if he is unwilling to deal with the discomfort that goes with it? Too many clerics hold their “callings” with the same attitude as a day laborer.
I totally agree with you Mr. Dave McAuley. I’ve been trying to get across that people need to be called or ministered to some way throughout the week. I’ve been going through a life crises, several all at once, and did not feel support from the church in which I was attending. Someone would ask how I am on Sunday, me in pieces, but didn’t seem to care enough to follow up. I came up w/the term “Sunday Friends” and it starting eating at me. I didn’t just want “Sunday Friends.” I was yearning for someone, anyone, to connect with, period, and especially emotional support throughout the week. But people are blind to those in need. I think unless you’ve been in those shoes, you don’t know what to do. Love is the key. Love as Jesus did. And Jesus didn’t only love on Sundays. He didn’t even wait for people to “come” to him. He went “out” to the people. I do feel led where I am going now, and have signed up for 3 classes in which I feel that I will be seriously be connected on and off campus. God Bless.
I had a similar experience recently. My wife and I had a crisis that put us at odds with each other in a legal matter. I had been a church volunteer and weekday service attender, whereas my wife was able only to attend on Sundays. In our crisis, we both reached out to church members, I to my Pastor and another church couple, and my wife to the Pastor’s wife. My Pastor had initially met with me once, promised his help and support and understanding. I requested he reach out to my wife, which he promised to do and give me some feedback. He promised to call me back, etc, and never did. I called the Associate Pastor for help also (who directed my volunteer service) and all I got were the usual platitudes like “Jesus will help you.” They took my wife’s side, and the Pastor initially stated he would come to court to support me emotionally and he then reneged. However, his wife was there supporting my wife!!! I have even attended church in the meantime, and he has promised to call me, get together to talk, and never did. It has been 2 months since the incident and nothing! The women all rallied around my wife, which caused all the men to leave me hanging, and my wife wants to know why I don’t want to go to church on Sunday? This is also not the first church things like this have happened to me in. I now think that this is endemic to all churches, due to the fact that they are defacto, if not dejure, being led by women. Women have all the influence and the men are milqtoasts. The only people to stand by me were the one couple, and they got a lot of flack for their trouble. I get more staying home and studying the bible for myself at this point. Who needs it?
Hi Adam. I am so sorry for the experience you had. I feel you pain and frustration. However, do not give up on church and the fellowship that is so very important. Pray for God to lead you to a place of worship that you can be warmly welcomed and plugged into. I just started attending a new church 2 weeks ago, and have joined some small groups to get connected w/people of similiar life experiences, people that are reaching back w/emotional support. The 1st service I attended was all about connecting!!! How about that…God is amazing today, yesterday, and forever. I hope you can find a place of worship you can call home. I wil be praying for you. Love in Christ, Valerie 🙂
If you are not the pastor’s favorite… forget it … he will see and help only his favorites… believe me I know what I’m talking about.
Yes! Not all, but most! I will not even say how wicked my previous pastor was. Because some of what he did was criminal, let alone immoral and ungodly. But elders would never RUN him off. They protected him and supported him while the sheep were being abused and leaving. No elder that I know of ever called him down and rebuked him for anything. Anytime he was questioned, he would lie his way out of it. And the elders would pray for him and let it go. The elders and church staff are just as much at fault for not stopping him and protecting the sheep.
Great post Dave!
I agree with Dave – This is a leadership issue. And when leadership has an “entitlement” mentality themselves, then the sheep are sure to follow.
agree, it came to the point that I got tired hearing it every Sunday, the Pastor has to tell everybody that he is the Pastor so and so and so and he did this and that,that he is merciful and that , most of the sermon was about himself!!!! But why are the people leaving if he was that great ? We found out after many years . He talked a lot I mean a lot about loyalty, and he was surrounded by boards and people who are willing to fight for him. Wow, poor people if you cross the line you are out of the door, they will guard the parking lot to make sure you can’t come back inside the church. I started to think this is madness and cultic. The fall and rise starts from the leadership the pastor preached one Sunday so it did. This is leadership issue period. I pray for people who have been hurt by the leadership that they may find a group that they can connect and be healed.
Thank you. I was going to say something similar. Though I understand what this gentleman is saying, the leadership has must take responsibility as well for creating the illusion of entitlment by their example. Too many times the leadership doesn’t understand their role. TO SERVE and shepherd, not dominate and control. Too many entitled pastors who think they need armor bearers and servants to carry their bible and grovel over their leaders. They think they are the ones to be served. A heiraechial system is NOT biblically sound . Lead by example and the people will follow. We are to serve one another in love.
This is a major dysfunction that could be expounded upon almost indefinitely.
Amen man of God that true
Absolutely! Amen. You are spot on.
Do you really want new leaders? Are you willing to let them lead in their own way? Are you willing to step back and not micromanage them? Are you waiting on them to fail and then tell them they are incompetent?
I am not sure any organization from churches to political parties to civic organizations wants new leaders because things might be done in a different manner than they were. Now different does not have to mean incorrect or immoral though to many people different equals wrong.
Amen!
I look at the parable of the talents. The fact that my church refuses to allow me to use my many talents there does not excuse me from building God’s Kingdom. God is going to ask me, “What did you do with the gifts that I have given you?” My answer cannot be, “I could not get the church to allow me to use my gifts. They wanted me to go paint houses and I don’t even know how to paint my own house. They wanted me to stack chairs and I have a foot problem.” God will not be pleased if he equipped me to evangelize and comfort the broken and I listened to a man say go stack chairs. I would rather listen to God and let man disapprove.
Great post! In the 4 years Pastoring at our church I have seen the greatest results thru one-on-one mentoring w either a man or a married couple to train them. It takes time but it brings results! And, slowly a church can be transformed.
Good point Tim. Thank you.
Thom, it follows, does it not?
Please consider this.
Bill Gates once said, “The most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning.”
If that is true, why are most evangelicals and fundamentalist Christians quick to say, “Those leaving the church are just not committed to Christ.” Or, worse, to quote the words of Thom Rainer, CEO of Lifeway Christian Resources, “I would therefore suggest that the main reason people leave a church is because they have an entitlement mentality rather than a servant mentality.”
Really? “Entitlement Mentality?”
If a company like Microsoft were to adopt such logic to explain declining sales or why fewer and fewer were buying its product, you don’t have to be a Bill Gates to figure out what future Microsoft would have.
If your “most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning,” wouldn’t it be more humble, even more Christ-like, for churches and church leaders to ask, “Might there be something wrong with us?”
I believe those two things are unrelated. It’s simple to me. You can’t compare a corporation to the Lord’s church. Those are two different things.
Kim- Your comment is a justification and change of subject. The connection made between the comment by Bill Gates and that of the attitude of the Church is certainly a fair one. For example, most of our churches today are not even really teaching the Bible, but rather just giving a feel-good message every sunday. We need to re-evaluate ourselves. If the product is not selling, then maybe it is the packaging, or maybe the product is not doing what it should be. People do not return the things they love. God is love, if His message is spread in a way that is honorable and TRANSFORMING then people will not want to leave. You need to address the points made in conversation otherwise your comment is useless. I am not trying to be mean, I am just calling you out because the response you gave is an excuse I am used to hearing.
Jesus spoke in parables so the unchurched and new believers could understand.
Many church leaders seem to get defensive when a wrong cord is struck. That’s a lot of the problem today. Many educated Pastors today are no more than business leaders with big businesses called The Church, in order to fleece the sheep and pad their pockets! This is where most of Gods people are treated like a commodity, so Pastors can have careers. If every fringe benefit and big salaries were stripped away, how many Pastors or under shepherds would remain? This is a lot of why people leave a church. Its what sheep can do for the shepherd with how he runs his business, until sheep are fleeced to being bare, instead of what the shepherd does for the sheep. The sheep are desperate for shepherding. Instead they are being devoured by wolves. Jesus didn’t come to be served, but to serve His people. Most Pastors want want want instead of serve serve serve. Preaching on Sunday is not what Jesus had in mind.
Christianity is really a faith-based spiritual organization. It is more than that because there are many physical psychological and social things that must be addressed.
For the most part, today’s church has become a corporate business, that is run by business men, not shepherds. Its more than obvious!. So Dr. Swains comparrison is pretty accurate.
The reason I left was because of a wicked evil shepherd that intentionally hurt people, including myself, and his preaching of false doctrine was based on pride and lies. Even though he was confronted many times because of his behavior, the faults always got twisted back to not being his fault. He is the one with entitlement issues and wanting to be served by All. I could longer be apart of falseness and hypocrisy. If I’m called disobedient for standing with Jesus and Truth instead of man and lies, then so be it. I have no regrets.
I am sick and tired of pastors and do-gooders telling me that “you can’t compare church work with the business or secular world.” Sure there’s an element of truth in this position; HOWEVER, I suggest it is just a convenient way for pastors and leaders to duck their responsibilities. Pastors don’t like a business model because it would force them to be “accountable; they prefer to deal in theories that have “no measurable outcome(s). Great if you can get away with it.!
I do agree that at times entitlement may be a factor, but it is far from the only factor. I know many people who wholly love the lord, who are serving constantly, and giving of themselves. And you know what, sometimes they just got burnt out. It happens. Sometimes churches fault to preach sound doctrine, sometimes leadership is weak. There are a myriad of reasons why people leave a church.
On the whole comparing church to a business: I was a part of a church that was allegedly run by a guy who had earned a business degree — something along an MBA. I have never been in a church in my life that has so closely mimicked Corporate America as this church. It has been exceptionally hierarchical (part of the Discipleship Movement).
People were promoted into leadership based on how well they met the church’s expectations and/or based on how close a relationship they had to their immediate upline leader. The whole model was a lot like an MLM, except that the “carrot” was ending up part of a church-planting team, at which time, you’d end up with some level of autonomy or lessened accountability (since your “accountability partners” would then be sycophantic peers, rather than superiors, or anyone who would potentially challenge you).
I was in this church for most of five years while in college. They were well-intended people; but the environment honestly struck me as somewhat toxic. We want to talk about a consumer-driven church filled with “entitled” people; well gee, I just wanted a church where I could focus on Jesus and serve, rather than be told I wasn’t allowed to serve, and have to be distracted by legalistic standards and people in leadership patting themselves on their backs, even as they ignored the concerns of us underlings.
For the record, this is the only church I can think of where I was involved for more than a year and have tragically had to leave and distance myself from it. This is the one I was a part of and had to “leave”. I hope that doesn’t make me “entitled”, just because I wanted to be treated with kindness and respect. I didn’t need a ministry in church. I could sweep the floors or clean the toilets. I just wanted to be treated with dignity, that’s all. But this is the church I “left” / distanced myself from.
I’ve been in churches that were like families. This was not one of them. Personally, I like the “family”-type churches. They tend to make me feel glad to serve them.
Unfortunately, The church itself compares itself to a corporation. It runs itself as such. And too often it is the leadership of the churches that have a sense of entitlement. What happened to the servant-leader model that Jesus set? I’ve watched too many people turn servant-hood into pastor-worship. i.e. ” If you walk the line and don’t question us, you are a man after God’s own heart.”
Maybe I am being sensitive. I was ask by the pastor’s wife to do several things in the church. She told me to think about it and get back with her in two weeks. I said okay. I agreed to help with children’s church and sing in the praise team. A few weeks later she hints that the lady doing the children’s church does not need any help. When I was ask to pick out songs for the praise team the songs I chose were changed at the last minute. I also ask if the church could go out in the neighborhood and have services in the park, Bible School in the local YMCA, this was ideas to help are small Church of twenty of less attendance, to grow. I have brought my grandchildren to church with me, when others bring their little ones to church they ask them to go out to the building with the other children, my grandchildren are never ask if the want to attend children’s church. In fact, I was told I could take them to the basement and teach them myself. Everytime I am ask to do something for the church I do it. It just different small things that make me feel like they do not want me in the church. The pastor’s wife has to ask her sister-s every time anyone makes a suggestion, not just me, everyone. She said let me run it by my sister-in-laws and see if it’s okay. I think the whole church should have a vote, not just a handful of people. Maybe I am wrong. I just thinking of going somewhere else. I don’t need to have a job in the church, just to feel wanted.
yeah girl
I think blaming it on entitlement avoids what is really wrong in many cases: self-centered pastors and church politics driving people away
You are absolutely right, Sandy.
Amen to self-centered pastors and church politics do drive people away in addition to too many programs. Churches have come up with the idea that programs take up 80% of the ministry and we give 20% of the gospel only on Sunday.
I have been attending a church that I am very interested in regarding membership and becoming a servant there. I have attended for more than a month and the Pastor has said almost nothing to me about anything. I have attended morning services, evening services, men’s breakfast and have plans to be involved further. I feel ignored by the Pastor who does not seem interested in me whatsoever. I don’t expect him to become a personal friend or even confidant, I just want to know he is interested in me as a future member and that he cares. I don’t expect him to speak to me all the time either, he has many obligations but it seems to me that if I come or don’t come it really doesn’t matter to him. I am seriously thinking about leaving even though the church has drawn me in and I want to be a part of it. The Pastor seems anointed, his teachings are very beneficial to me but now I just feel like it doesn’t matter if I am there or not. Any advice?
Agreed. Totally. It’s like that where I am now. Roughly 90% of the people at the church I attend now are cold, formal, hardened in their hearts and self centered. Had a mild incident last night at a function with a lukewarm believer and her mother. That was the last straw out of a string of events leading up to it. At the church I attend, 90% of the people don’t want a revival. They don’t even want the Holy Ghost. They just want country club politics and playtime to keep busy and keep up appearances. Fellowship and love is a two way process. Saying guys like me feel “entitled” is a “cop out” and is blaming the defecting believer instead of the establishment and its demonically plagued believers.
The church is missing the love of Christ and God.
This is just a comment regarding the possibility of leaving my present church, just information that I believe relates. I have been attending a church since October 2015 attending all the services, morning and evening, I have participated in just about every Wed. night service, I have attended Men’s breakfast and currently helping with VBS. I have even donated a vehicle which really doesn’t have anything to do with this. Just showing my wish to be involved. Due to some rather difficult situations personally, my wife and I have not been able to attend any services for about 3 weeks now. I don’t require much at all as far as needs but I kind of expected someone to find out why we are not there. No follow up has been made and it really bothers me. The other thing is that the Pastor has had very few words for me and seems like he avoids me. I just don’t know what to do or feel about this. Just letting you know that these kinds of things do cause people to leave a church. Oh, 2 Pastors and 6 Elders, no call, no attempt to find out what has happened.
P. Tefft – Sometimes the pastor or elders don’t call because they don’t want to make you feel guilty for not being able to make it for a few weeks.
To an extent your post is correct. Consider it is immature board members trying to run the church like a business instead of a soul-healing and soul-saving station. The pastor probably has a vision for this, but it is often immature board members that make it an unhealthy situation. They buck the authority of scripture, and carnal/selfish/immature people do this. When someone does not care about what scripture teaches, it will always result in being against the pastor, if they have a vision that is Kingdom-conscious. You are supposed to nominate spiritually mature people that are Kingdom minded and not just socially minded. Unfortunately, it falls on the pastor because immature people do not want to hear the truth, are only socially conscious and not Kingdom conscious. Having an appearance of a church is more important than the truth truth. Often, people that are not Kingdom-conscious do not like a pastor that preaches the Word because scripture contradicts them. If you are a pastor that preaches the word, and the congregation/denomination does not want it,, it is because the Bible ultimately contradicts them.
Sometimes people leave because they were simply goats trying to walk among sheep and it just got old after a while. A work of the flesh will not last forever with most people.
Other times true sheep leave because the goats have overrun the congregation and it makes the sheep feel out of place just being there. There really are church buildings full of worldy, unregenerated people that play church to make themselves feel right with God and they reassure each other with their presence that they are.
So true! This is it: church politics and self-centeredness.
I’ve recently I’ve recently had to leave a church that that is regarded by many as above reproach. However despite Sian biblical doctrine I was not being discipledcipled, all supported. The Very things this author says churches should be doing. This church in particular has got comfortable in it’s position so that these days see no need for Change. This is a cancer spreading throughout the reformed churches as well as the liberal.
I agree that politics out stages the love of Christ in many of my local churches. Politics is talked about at bible studies as if the GOP is God’s church, and those churches do run businesses such as thrift stores. Some even ask me to volunteer my time at those stores, sorting through nasty linens. I’m like no way am I coming out of retirement to work for a church ran like a business, because it is a big business.
-“Jesus spoke in parables so the unchurched and new believers could understand.”
– althouh I grew up hearing that same thing, after recently re-reading Matthew 13 i don’t think that’s actually true. The disciples asked Jesus why he spoke in parables and he said that it had been given to them (the disciples) to know these thongs, but to them (the crowds) it had not been given, and he went on to quote a “curse” of sorts from Isaiah about them being able to see yet not seeing and being able to hear yet not hearing. He then goes on to explain the parables to the disciples, but apparently, not to the craowds.
Very true.
I’m just setting this entire writing and all post to Pastor Thomas’s message.
To God be the glory. The post complaining Mr. Gates analogy was wonderfully made. People are being broken and torn more today by leadership than ever before and not taking the abuse mentally before a lot of Picked By Man Leaders or Picked by themselves leaders are pushing their sense of entitlement on the believer and trying to say it’s what Jesus says, but God is pulling the wool off his children’s eyes, more and more because he will not continue to allow church leaders hurt his children when they are suppose to be able to come to the hospital to get restored, revived, renewed reborn. To many Shepherds are taking ownership of Their Church, not Gods Church. Yes there areany who leave for their own issues, but like an Owned Business, From the pulpit The Boss or Founder of the building and it’s title boldly make it clear, Like it my way or leave. Sad. Sad. Sad…… Who would Arrogantly tell someone follow My Way or hit the highway when The church is Jesus foundation and the fullness thereof. My spirit grieved when I started reading your 5reasons most people leave a church. Their billions of buildings called a Church, but so, so many are not founded or chosen by God. God doesn’t even dwell or ever reside in many of these so called churches. Just like he has not been given access to dwell in many people’s lives. No indwelling of Jesus Christ in youNo church… Because are we not the actual churchThe Bride of Jesus that He will come to take home one day?
Let us stop thinking our titles mean our status of importance to God. It does not! Every part of the body is significant for the body to function in its fullness to be whole. The body is out of whack if any part is messed up or lacking. Each part matters. The Body is not whole as long as…. A part is out of place and being used. We need each other to function and be whole. Blessings to you all. May God Heal our Land… After we get on one accord and have True repentance and become one body unified.
Preach on, brother. I spent many yrs. backsliding until God stripped away everything so that I had to pay attention. When I returned to the church. I noticed an alarming trend. That trend being that the church in many ways has started to model itself after the world. This is what has driven many like me away from the church and bbn into my Bible. It also also forced me to get closer to God in my personal life. People yearn for something out of the church that DIFFERENTIATES it from the fallen world we live in. Instead, what we are getting is a post modern, millenial, watered down version of Christianity that seeks to undermine so much of what we believe as Christisns until the church no longer looks like church, but a rock concert with a little infotainment thrown in, but not too much, or someone might be offended and not come back.
What offended me out of the church was a lack of fellowship, a worldly stance, mixed with modern day pastors who do more to stroke the egos of the peo ppl let than to hold a mirror up by way of the Word of God. I actually had a pastor try and get me to play guitar in the music ministry at the funeral of the church guitarists wife. No shame or scruples whatsoever.
People who want to criticize who are believers forget that they are part of the body also. We can develop a sense of pointing the finger at those that are the ones ministering, rather we should be looking at what the bible says about being part of the body. If one hurts we all hurt.
That being said, we are the trying to be a corporation rather believers believe what the bible says, in that Christ will build His church. Matt 16:18 They is always reasons on top of reasons why people leave, we must always look at ourselves and ask “am I really serving, worshiping you in Spirit and truth”?
Its sad to read through the comments and see everybody is really arguing and stating their opinions over everyone else. Christ loved us enough to what….but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men Phil 2.
Thank-you for your comment.
Hello everyone I’am a member of a church that has gone through countless challenges over the years and have seen many friends leave, I have also experienced being alone, rejected, talked about negatively, looked down on and many other things however, I remain in this church because God has placed me there and I choose to keep my focus on him not the storm which surrounds me, everyone has there reasons for leaving a church which is a choice we are imperfect people facing many challenges God knows what he’s doing. After reading all these great post from everyone I see his work being done God bless all of you
@ Faith: Praise God for your example. I am encouraged and will stay also.
Steve, your very last point “Might there be something wrong with us?” is the the question every church should be asking. It may be that a specific does not click with a person, or the congregation might be on the cold side where visitors or guests are concerned. A church has one chance to make a first impression. If someone does not want to return to the church, it is not the church’s place to criticize or judge. If someone has had a bad experience or impression of the church, will the pastor or members listen. A church that I used to go to would always tell me to “get over it”, “that’s your problem, or “you need to be more forgiving”. To me, those are valid reasons for leaving a church. Also, I don’t believe that people are leaving churches because they have a sense of entitlement. The expectation of treating people the way you would want people to treat you is more like a two-way street than an entitlement.
As a pianist, I was always told “Use your talent for the Lord”, beginning at age 11. I went on to get a music degree, and was told the same thing — use my talent FOR FREE. I felt as though that was all the church saw. If I missed a service, for whatever reason, I heard, “Where were you? We needed you !!!” Skilled musicians in the Bible got paid. I never hear preachers preach about that, but they always preach tithing.
I know this is way past date of original posting, but I just felt like commenting. I believe you make a good point and a valid one at that, but corporation verses the body of Christ is way too distant of a comparison to base a logical argument on. Thom states that there are other reasons for people leaving the church; he just believes that the main reason is a sense of entitlement, or better yet, selfishness. There is no all-encompassing statement to fully ascribe the reason for every individual who leaves the church. The root of all sin is, at its most basic, selfishness and the desire to be fulfilled. Corporations desire to fulfill consumers with things that make them say, “I couldn’t live without this product.” We know this to be completely false. Everyone has the capability to live without a new computer, and corporations are holistically self-centered; they wouldn’t survive if they weren’t. People do not, by any means, have the ability to live life to its fullest without Christ. While corporations are completely self-centered, Christianity is completely self-sacrificial. Complete opposites. Why, then, would you ask “what can we do for you?” when instead we should be showing them the answer to what church goers need, “What has Christ already done for you?”
We all feel entitled to things. People do leave the church because they prize entitlement over serving others. Churches do suck at showing the love of Christ sometimes. But, Jesus has said “it is finished,” and in that we can truly reach this humility you mentioned earlier at the foot of the cross, in full sub-missal to the all loving God. If we base our Church off of Microsofts marketing tools instead of God’s word then, and truly then, we are fundamentally flawed.
I think most people leave church because they no longer believe.
That was the reason I left (recently), and I was afraid to say so. I suspect others feel the same way.
But now that I am out, I feel so free!! I feel like the weight of the world was lifting off my shoulders. I have never been happier.
@ Ann: I am happy you feel better; you shouldn’t feel burdened. However, please consider following Jesus; please don’t give up on your faith in Jesus.
The post seems to blame the person leaving due to o an entitlement spirit. Probably true in some cases, but I doubt this is the root cause. Often it is the realisation that the church is so different from Jesus. It’s become a religious organisation or a private club, where only people of a certain category are welcomed. People are not leaving Jesus, they’re leaving Christless churches, often exemplified by its leadership..usually the pastor. Loveless, uncaring, control freaks are what people are leaving. Do wake up church. It’s you that are driving people away, not people leaving you.
Many church leaders seem to get defensive when a wrong cord is struck. That’s a lot of the problem today. Many educated Pastors today are no more than business leaders with big businesses called The Church, in order to fleece the sheep and pad their pockets! This is where most of Gods people are treated like a commodity, so Pastors can have careers. If every fringe benefit and big salaries were stripped away, how many Pastors or under shepherds would remain? This is a lot of why people leave a church. Its what sheep can do for the shepherd with how he runs his business, until sheep are fleeced to being bare, instead of what the shepherd does for the sheep. The sheep are desperate for shepherding. Instead they are being devoured by wolves. Jesus didn’t come to be served, but to serve His people. Most Pastors want want want instead of serve serve serve. Preaching on Sunday is not what Jesus had in mind.
The church does not want to take responsibility for things that is. People worship the pastor more than they do God.
Amen! Myself and my family left the church that my husband had attended for 40+ years because we refused to be led by a wicked shepherd that would use his power to hurt people instead of helping them, while he helped himself to anything he wanted. There is scripture in Jeremiah and others that speak of wicked men in the church fellowship. Gods people are to flee from them if they are not run off by standing elders and leaders. Not including preaching falsely. I prayed for Christ to open my eyes and show me His Truth and He did. More than I asked Him too. A lot of people are leaving, including myself, because there are more wolves in sheep’s clothing in our churches than there are Godly called men. We left to draw nearer to God and to protect our spiritual being that wicked leaders tried to destroy. Its very say but wolves are taking over our churches.
I agree that there is a lack of love in churches, not always the pastor. People are lonely and hurting and need Jesus! They need the word of God , NOT entertainment. The platform is cleared of the pulpit to make room for musicians.The music and sermons are contemporary and people are starving for God’s word. David Platt had the right idea Bible study and prayer for 6 hrs and people came. Why come to church to get entertained when you can get that at home.
What I miss about church is not that I feel entitled to this or that BUT I feel entitled to hear the pure word of God and sing hymns that honor Him instead of songs that entertain me!
Thank you for that comment. I try desperately to understand why it is that many Christians can’t seem to grasp the one key command Jesus required of us as belonging to Him. That is “Love.” It feels to me that people are so busy “doing church” that they are losing the concept of “love” in the church. You hear things like, “We want to increase the membership, spread the gospel…” There are so many reasons why church growth is sought after, and I agree people should come in, and hear the word, grow, learn, share… But, too many churches are just adding to the numbers. I understand church people can be a mixture of fruit and nuts (literally); however, they all belong to Christ. When we can really get that, I believe we’ve almost arrived. When someone is hurting, absent, or in a dark place in their lives; how much effort does it take to acknowledge or maybe even appoint someone to just offer a word of encouragement. Many pastors, department heads…don’t want to invest in the lives beyond their formal assignment. They often complete their assigned task, and they keep it moving. It’s the churches that completely ignore or perhaps even desert people in crisis that I see no evidence that Jesus is their driving force. If Jesus shared the parable of 1-lost sheep, or coin that was sought after, who are we that we can’t stop and at least consider our brother or sister in times of need? Nobody can do it all, but anyone can at least take a moment out to acknowledge one’s pain…If you are going to seek to continue adding to the church, you shouldn’t forget the key ingredient to maintain the church, and that is “Love.” If love draws, then love can maintain. If it is too much to ask that the church display the love of Christ in more than just preaching the word, receiving offerings… Then perhaps they shouldn’t refer to themselves as “the church” and go do something else. I’m just saying!
I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. MC Swain, I pastored for over ten years, also led worship for thirteen. You have to address the needs of the flock. We are Shepherds still, are we not? If one of your sheep is in trouble spiritually or any other way you get to that sheep and minister life to it until it is healthy again. For Christ’s sake..love the sheep you have..we are there to Shepherd them, even to the point of laying down our lives. When they mature they can give back to the church.. But church leaders have got it completely backwards nowadays. It’s called FEED MY SHEEP.
Yes! This is my heart on this issue. Sheep leave the fold because they are being abused and starved! They have to leave to find a green pature and their shepherd that will feed them properly until they can freely be on their own to lead other sheep to their shepherd that will feed them. This is life or death for the sheep but wicked shepherds leave them hungry and wounded. Its so very very sad! Scripture speaks of this clearly but churches ignore these passages or blame other churches but not themselves. Please don’t underestimate the power of God when He calls His own sheep away from wickedness that has crept in unaware. That what happened to me and my family.
Agreed. There IS something wrong with the many churches. I came from Holiness and other related backgrounds where members showed love and an earnest desire to help the others in the Body of Christ. When I left and came to the grace churches, I was open to accept others as my brothers and sisters in Christ. However, as the 3 years went on, I was horrified at the huge laxness a majority of the members had. Nobody in one church wanted or even asked me to their homes for fellowship. And when I would give Scriptures or other gifts to them, as led by the Holy Spirit, they would either give the gift to someone else ad avoid me, or they would just give it back a short time later to which I refused. I do not take back gifts because where I come from, it’s an insult. I discovered many who were at church, especially bigger churches, where they were Sunday Only Christians who were there just to dip their big toe in the water and call it a day. One song leader was full of himself when an elderly brother told him, kindly, that the music decibals were too loud. The son g leader said that “loud music was Scriptural”. The elderly brother said there was no Scriptural basis for playing loud – overly loud music. The song leader ignored him and kept the format “as is”. One of the other pastors also was full of himself and shutting down some elderly women who simply “got in his way”. I met the man myself and I know, first hand, a carnal spirit when I see one. Yet the lead pastor doesn’t want to hear anything negative. Excuse me, but there “is” such as thing as “constructive criticism”. I’m not saying I feel “entitled” for anything. When a number of churches have a majority of cold, formal and distant member within a 90% range, we have a serious problem. Yet such a problem is ot addressed over the pulpit because “nobody wants to be criticized or ‘told’ what to do”. And more often than, men like myself are blamed instead of the church saying “The problem is not with him but is with US.” Just yesterday I attended a church function where I tried to be friendly with someone and they were outright rude. They and their relatives snubbed me and walked away. By this point I thought to myself that THIS was the straw that broke the camel’s back and that I was in a country club instead of a growing church. Now a small 5% range of believers are genuine but there is a very heavy spirit on the rest of them. And it’s quite thick. Now I know we are supposed to go to church to fellowship with God first and foremost and the Bible tells us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves. The latter these days is becoming an increasingly discouraging problem. When a majority of the brothers and sisters are cold, formal, distant and un-accepting, this can become a snare. The Scripture I can use is that “if they receive you not, dust the Sands off of your feet and move on.” Many members of the church I attend are NOT used to gift giving such as Scriptures, cd’s or dvd’s. Many and many of them are not used to or interested in being prayed for out of the blue. Some are but only a 5% range. Does not the Scriptures also command and/or caution us NOT to act as stumbling blocks to one another. Well, there are major flurries of cold, dry, formal and distant people where I attend that seem to be stumbling blocks to genuine. No. Men like myself are tired of being singled out as either “disgruntled perfectionists with bones to pick”. This tells me that not only is there a heavy spirit of denial, but there are also spirits engaging in “cover ups”. These churches forget another they must seriously consider: Jesus was condemned and made out to be a lunatic by who – – the organized religious institutions. Many churches, especially the one I’m in grieves the Holy Spirit. It is in desperate need of a revival. Now there ARE some good qualities in this church with a variety of programs – but 90% of the people are weeds. I’m sorry. How could THAT not ACT as a Cancer and eventual stumbling block if any.. Brethren in Christ, I await your answers for are we not to be irons sharpening irons? Well, with the church I have been in for almost a year now, there are no irons sharpening mine – yet. Instead, they are “dulling my iron”. I would say this is a Code Red Alert in many churches. After a latest incident with a cold, distant and formal member, I am seriously considering leaving the grace movement and going back to the Holiness movement. At least over there, they have conduct, order and doctrine. And many of the people show what they believe. I apologize to you all ad to God for sounding a bit frustrated. I am going to seriously pray over this matter. Just my take on all of this.
Correction: I said I was seriously considering leaving the grace movement. That was a tad hasty. I think I will simply leave the church I’m in now, for it is becoming more of a hindrance. Sure, they have the programs and organization but not the people. A small 5 to 10% range of genuine believers are not enough for me to stay and grow. Sorry.
“When a majority of the brothers and sisters are cold, formal, distant and un-accepting”
This doesn’t sound like they have a true love for each other and it sounds like they already fail the test in 1 John. This is why I believe many, if not most, people who think they are saved are not. Most people who believe they are believers do so because they prayed a prayer one time in their life and got baptized. Not only have they not shown any fruit in their life they have no conversion testimony to speak of. People are suppose to examine and test themselves.
I agree with you. But the church does not want to look at the wrong thing they’re doing. If you even disagree a little they rather kick you out instead of investigating what is really going on.
I agree Steve. I just read a post from my pastor to a woman who has had a migraine for 3 days and he said come to church on Sunday and be anointed with oil. It’s only Monday… Let her suffer for a week?
You hit the nail on the head!
I couldn’t agree more!
Entitlement mentality? Really that’s funny when one considers the fact that I have all but begged the Pastor and his wife to be allowed to volunteer at whatever is needed!! All I want to do is serve, but almost am never asked even after making it very clear that anything that is needed just ask. Right now in our small 65 member church we have a Pastor and 5 Elders (all men of course). When any idea is brought up by any members to help grow the church, help save money or even help bring in money the ideas are immediately shot down. Now we are accused of being gossiping, hateful trouble makers for having the nerve to share our feelings with each other. This is how our Pastor reacted when one member told him how many members where feeling. Sorry sir I think in our case it is the Pastor that suffers from the Entitled mentality… But I most certainly agree with your study and the main reason why folks leave a church…
I am in the same boat as you. They will not allow me to serve. I have this amazing idea that could bring millions to Christ, but I can get no help from church. I evangelize on my own and bring about 15 people to the Lord per week. I wanted to work with our missions department, but they do not return calls. I presented it to several pastors and 1 likes it but it has to be approved by a committee and 9 times out of 10 a committee will say no. The church itself is a country club. The members want a body of Christ to build God’s Kingdom. Most churches are too busy building their own personal exclusive kingdom.
I completely agree. Music is important. Some music in church is outright Satanic. What is wrong with people desiring a real community that cares? When my mom died and no one really did anything, I knew that this was not the family I wanted. The church itself is an exclusive Country Club and that is why people leave. When I have a real problem, I stay away from church. Church should be the first place I go. But instead of getting loving concern or living water, I get self- righteous filthy rags filled with dirty water.
I agree Dr.Steve, I am a new Christian ,27 yrs old, and it’s hard to find a church where I can grow spiritually, and biblically, some churches I’ve attended provide discipleship, or group meetings ,but it’s way too far a drive (not located in church premises), or, there’s no day care, ect. Other churches don’t have
much happening . Another thing is that, some leaders or members only look at me as a ( young, single mom) instead of trying to get to know “me”, they ask how I get my bills paid,
or ask very very personal and at times uncomfortable
questions. I just want
to find a church where I’m accepted
and where I can grow ,bc in my heart, I know that I want
to give back, and I want
God to some day use me in church community.
I agree 1000%. As a former pastor who constantly held onto the idea that people who leave are the ones with the problems, I can now say that such a attitude is a self-delusion motivated by self-preservation instead of wisdom. And almost everything I see online written by people in full-time ministry falls into the same trap. I would love to see what a minister has to say about it who does not accept pay from the congregation. Would we even encourage such a thing anymore?
I can respectfully see your line of thought however the Church is not a “worldly minded “ place and is not to be a carnal minded hideout for the unsatified member. When a person can see that the church or the Lord Jesus owes them nothing, then they will be able to be taught and lead into being a disciple of Jesus Christ. In today’s times it seems that most of society have abandoned the need for prayer and reading the Word of the Lord which automatically breaks down sanctification all together. You cannot see the Kingdom of God without being born again,maybe some places are trying to up the number on the registry rather than winning souls!
Agreed! And if it a re occurring issue, one would think the leaders need some
Soul searching! And please explain to me where church membership is talked about in the Bible??? I don’t see it!
1 Corinthians 12:24-27:
Instead, God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the less honorable, 25 so that there would be no division in the body, but that the members would have the same concern for each other. 26 So if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and individual members of it.”
I agree! Expecting something from your congregation that you are not modeling.. ie. SERVANT LEADERSHIP…you will not teach many. Do what we say and not what we do rarely works.
Agree. I’ve heard many sermons picking on the congregation for being ‘entitled’ or ‘wanting served’ or ‘putting personal preferences over commitment to Christ’ (usually as a prelude to asking the congregation to give more money or serve on the greet-team.) Rarely do I encounter a church group whose leadership is willing to confront real problems in how they do things.
Certainly, there are churchgoers who coast and don’t get involved. But when those problems are systematic it often has to do with leadership:
– Not giving opportunity to serve (e.g. certain ministries everyone is encouraged to serve in, like volunteering with nursery or being on the greet team, but many ministries are near impossible to serve in unless you have connections with someone in leadership)
– Certain gifts not being ‘allowed’ (problem with many cessationist churches, or churches that poo-poo discernment and knowledge in favor of hospitality)
– Gifts being used incorrectly leading to studies and services not being edifying (everyone babbling in glossolalia at once, for example)
– The church not engaging in any form of discipleship, but keeping services and classes very basic
– The church diving deep into intellectual study and history but not motivating listeners to apply it
– No networks of accountability within the church
– Leadership in the church treating everyone else as if it is their job to serve and finance the leaderships many vacations, rather than the leadership’s job to equip the saints for ministry
Etc. Stagnant members are a problem, but considering ‘entitled members’ the biggest problem is unfair.
The church is not microsoft and Bill Gates is not worshiped there. Too many churches have become like a business and only deepened the entitlement problem.In your example giving should be in the form of entrance fee and the church be all paid staff.
Although, Jesus allowed people to walk away on more than one occasion. Wgen the rich young ruler walked away, Jesus didn’t go afer him and say, “how can I change to make this better for you?” There was another instance when a large number of peopleleft and stopped following Jesus and he turned to the disciples and asked if they were going to leave too(to which Peter replied,
“Where shall we go?”
It is certainly important to regularly engage in introspective self examination (asking God if there is any offensive thing in our own hearts/lives), but if the Bible is being followed and preached properly, and people leave, then I suspect it may be a case of what is mentioned in 1 John, (if they were truly of us they would not have left, but by leaving, they show that they were not of us)
I went to this church for 28 yrs. Realized pastor was taking all tithes for his self and wife. He leaves the church nothing. Right now he has 4 members. Eight of left. No money to fix church up. The assembly told pastors they could take a salary or get all tithes from church, so for 28 yrs., he gets all tithes. Nothing is left to fix up church
.What do you suggest?
Steven, You are SO right!! Thank you for your response and ditto to those who agreed with him!
Several people in this thread stated that a church and corporation cannot be compared. The corporation focus is “customer experience” – even hospitals now have this mission. The ‘research question’ stated here is, “why are people leaving?” and the pastor blamed and judged the people saying the problem is their attitude of entitlement. Steve’s response is on-target! It’s about LISTENING to learn from others – to hear them, rather than just brushing them off, naming a character flaw to invalidate them. The comparison Steve is making is about communication and actually caring about the people enough to hear their concerns so they will feel cared for enough to stay- ie compassion, kindness, love,…those spiritual qualities – remember those? That’s what I’m hearing in some of the examples listed by the original poster – the people didn’t feel cared about or included. Look beyond what might appear petty to you to hear the hurt.
People who approach church are very vulnerable. They might have had a bad experience before visiting, or while being a part of your church! There are books by Christian authors which encourage church-goers to be especially vulnerable when interacting with others in church – this is not usually safe! There is a higher concentration of mentally ill, sex addicts, controllers, exploiters, etc gathering in churches.
I have been looking for a church for 2 years and have been praying over a certain church as a possibility to go regularly. I pulled away last year, after the brand new women’s leader made a very inappropriate comment criticizing another woman who had just opened up to share something deeply personal – her criticism showed a very warped point of view and lack of education. I was appalled that she would be inflicting herself onto others in a leadership position. I decided to keep looking for a new church (new to the area). I recently started to re-consider this same church, thinking I would just avoid the women’s studies. While in the WORKPLACE, a medical professional approached me and vomited his mental problems all over me. He confessed that he is a sex addict, who is leaving the medical field to become a minister at this particular church – the senior pastor thinks he would be perfect to help women there who are involved with men like him! I had never spoken to him before, except to say hello, in passing, a couple of times, and here he was cornering me to listen to this for about 30 minutes, and he even said that “if anyone feels uncomfortable hearing this, that is God convicting them.” Thanking God for the answer to prayer, warning me off this church! This element is what I am seeing so much in churches and repels me.
Yes, we are all sinners, but not all of us are walking in certain sins or think of the sin as a license to manipulate others. Since we are all human, it’s important not to set each other and the congregation up for failure. My daughter’s youth minister is now in prison for sexually abusing several girls who were in her group. He was newly married to a stunning physician. I had several ministers make passes at me over the years, and even more congregates try to pry into my personal life, give unwanted advice, twist scriptures to manipulate, etc (talk about “entitlement”!). Currently, in my city, there is a well-known “ministry” leader who tells people how to vote and literally shames them and tells them they are disobeying God if they don’t support his candidate – that’s not even legal and is so unethical it turns my stomach!
These are just a few of my more recent experiences with churches, why left churches, and why I may never go again. Today, each time I approach a church, I realize that I will likely deal with this insanity again and ask myself why I am putting myself in that situation.
So many in the church have very unhealthy boundaries and that trend appears to be growing and is even fueled by leaders – churches are no longer safe places and are rarely even spiritual places, anymore. The church used to be a place of love – a sanctuary for refuge (spiritually and physically).
Although I desperately want to be part of a church, lately I have been coming to terms that I might never return. I’ve talked with a few friends who see the crisis that the church is currently in, but believe that most church leaders and congregates are completely blind to it.
You are on target. Pointing fingers is not an answer. It is true that some people are takers, but I believe most Christians are givers. So if a giving person feels unheard, the Pastor needs to listen. These are lead-sheep are should be his/her greatest asset.
By comparing consumers of corporate products to Saints being equipped for works of service, you have beautiful lt illustrated the authors point.
Amen ! And instead of trying to find new members to replace those who left. Why not find out why their leaving and how about those the church has hurt and cast out.
Why the body of Christ thinks they need to kill their hurt and wounded , I will never understand.
Their are so many wounded Christians walking around in this world who truely love the Lord but their fed up with the church and its programs.
What happened to the praying , Jesus seeking lifting up that all men would be drawn unto him.
The church has lost the power of God’s spirit directing its leaders.
Most pastors now days don’t read the Bible and pray for a word from God for their flock. They get their messages off the internet.
Give us back the old time man of God ! Who loved the Lord and was taught by the Holy Spirit .
The distinction here is that church members are to be servants of Christ, not consumers of a “Christian product.”
People are human beings, therefore they ARE entitled to certain things (human rights, happiness, love etc). The entitlement mindset is what drives people to succeed and creates great leaders and unique individuals. What is the point in working hard if you are not going to get anything in the end. Religion states that you will have an enjoyable afterlife and to not be to concerned about this one. Well I’m sorry, this is the only life we are completely sure we will have so why not make the most out of it? Why not become the best you that you can be? Why not see each other as equal but with different talents and unique developments? For example when someone says “I was born to play music” that is a sense of entitlement that helps them continue. Of course this mindset can get out of control, but so can any other mindset. Church is about changing people, not just bad people but good people as well. They put it into your head that you are a broken sinner who is evil from birth. Leaving the church to prove two things 1: Babies do evil things and 2: God is real outside of evidence. Question two is why I left, they have never given any evidence outside of “testimony”. So yeah go ahead and put the blame on the people, try and change them and morph them into what you want so that they stay. This sounds like the making of a cult to me. Maybe they are leaving because they feel that the bible is just a story. Oh and “shutting the backdoor” by which people are trying to escape sounds like forced religion to me. I will do everything I can to get people OUT of a church that thinks this way. I can only hope more people can escape so that they may be able to learn how to think for themselves and do so freely. How sad the world will be if we are all the same. Long live diversity.
You made some good points Joshua…..but you are missing one supernatural truth! “You must be born again” Said Jesus! When you have the Spirit of Christ guess what you have a ‘servant heart’ and you follow your Lord in life and practice! It’s really not that complicated! God is love and in Him is no darkness at all …… when we follow Him through His Spirit’s leading, we grow up and know how to live a life of ‘service’ to Him and His people …. wherever they may be! Our innermost being sings of the Joy of the Lord and our lives are testimonies of His love and grace operating there-in! Testimony is powerful …. because naturally we don’t have a servant heart which is a life-style but when we are born again this is a life-style! God bless you to realize His amazing Grace and Love! Regards Carmel Sherwood
Carmel,
Well said! God’s grace isn’t just about receiving us as sinners. God’s grace transforms us from what we used to be into something radically different! Apart from that transformative work, grace would be empty. God’s Spirit invades our lives, transforms our minds, resurrects our hearts, and makes us living sacrifices empowered to love God supremely and other sacrificially.
Anything less than that misses the mark of the gospel!
if the goal of a Church is that its people have to be forced or intimidated into ‘staying’, then said ‘Church’ is dying from something more serious than the departure of its members
Look deeper . . . what would cause leaders of such a Church to inflict ‘discipline’ that involves abuse ? . . . find THAT darkness and eliminate it, and such a Church will be able to come back into the light of Christ again
I agree with the sentiment of this comment yet there also seems to be a spirit of control that permeates these churches. We must remember that the Church is the body and not the establishment itself. The pastor is the leader – hence he should lead by example. Pastors are stretched thin, I know, however mentoring and showing enthusiastic interest in members who come to serve and desire to grow, should come first and foremost when it comes to this topic.
Nothing is more deflating than earnestly desiring to be a part of the church and serve in a manner you have interest, and being excluded or ignored. This is where the politics often come into play; the cliques, or fiefdoms snuff out any spark that begins to shimmer.
Often when the discouraged member attempts to explain or address the issue, they are met with promises of inclusion. Yet, most often the over-stretched Pastors have insufficient time to address the fundamental issues that lay just beneath the façade of “bless your heart brother or sister”.
Unfortunately when this confused and bewildered member decides to move on, they are quickly bombarded with Biblical legality – hurled in harsh undertones. “You should consult the elders.” “You are to subjugate yourself to the Church.” “If you don’t faithfully attend our Church then it is doubtful you are Christian.” “When are you going to become the spiritual leader you should be?” “You should be serving and not complaining.” Wow, even as I put this into words, it strikes me just how condemning and controlling these comments sound.
I have personally experienced this and know that I would rather watch a seedy televangelist who cannot damage me from afar, than to continue to subject myself and my family to the hints of cultish theater as mentioned above.
Joshua – I think one particular point you made about churches only having evidence in “testimony” and no other way is unfortunate that you were not able to have more intellectual conversations about faith with people. I myself had a professor in college (who is a Christian), mention that there is no total “evidence” for faith (specifically Christianity…. it is a lot of story/testimony). He did explain that we can have good reasons for faith though. [which I found to be intellectually helpful] He went through Biblical & historical reliability, as well as how science & Christianity do not negate each other. He also went into the philosophical premise that we have faith in many things. (ie faith in the electrical processes of a car, that it will most likely start. we could also call it belief, trust… maybe just thought). But, people generally put trust or belief into at least something in their life. Sometimes it’s themselves and sometimes apart from themselves of course. And we have no “evidence” to believe ourselves either, but often times, we do… It’s interesting to me. It’s not as if our logic is without fault.
Also, I think humans are made to think & value diversity! And absolutely not trap anyone in a church. SCARYYYYY. I just left a great church myself, but was disappointed about the lack of willingness to have conversations about justice & society – in an intellectual and non-exclusionary way. I’ve found a few in my search that are doing these things though.
The best to you.
This article seems oversimplified. There’s usually a long story and many events behind a statement, “I left my church because…….”
I know of a young man who served at church, faithfully, every Sunday. Years later, I ran into him. He had fallen away. Why didn’t anyone reach out to him? Did they assume he changed churches? If he had, so what? He had served there faithfully for years, so he deserved their care and their concern. This young man always went above and beyond. He loved the Lord and those he ministered to. But, did the church value him? Did they give him the worth of a “sheep”? No. Not even the worth of a sheep. Someone could have asked him to lunch; asked if he’d like to be mentored; or asked him to help with a project. But, he left and no one bothered.
Others I know have been through the same thing. The church leaders may say, “I don’t want to pry.” But, if their horse or dog or cat went missing, they’d scour the land, hang up “missing” flyers, and call every pound within 10 sq miles to find that animal. The shepherds need to stop worrying about offending or prying, get out there and search. And if they’re too busy, find others who can help. Most everyone wants to help. But, when you think they’re just a ‘pew warmer’, you’ve judged them. Sometimes, all you need to say is, “We need your help. Can you help?”
At my church of over 4,000 members, I recommended a song, and a few weeks later, it was shared with the entire congregation. When I heard it, my heart soared with praise to God, and the church was blessed. Every time they sang that song, I could sense the church fill with God’s presence. Maybe some worship leaders need to loosening up and realize that maybe God does want to bless the congregation with a song outside their regular repertoire?
One church a friend attended, the pastor was always gone. His first love was music, so, he’d leave town to perform. In his stead, he appointed someone to teach. But the person he appointed was a pretty new believer. The pastor was not only shirking on his responsibilities, but, he put a new person in charge, which Paul strictly forbid, and his flock was dying of starvation, and didn’t have the leadership they needed and deserved. They stayed, but they suffered. Who was acting entitled here?
My brother attended a church that was trying to raise money for a new building. Every Sunday, the priest spent his entire sermon time asking for money. Guilting people into giving. My brother was on the highway to hell, and in dire need of hearing the word of God, but, all he heard was, “GIVE!” If the priest had given out God’s word, the church would have grown, and they would have raised enough money, naturally, for the project. But, fact is, the building was only about 30 years old, and it didn’t seem like they were outgrowing the facility. So, maybe this was more of a “want”, than a “need”? In my area, a lot of churches meet in schools. It reduces the overhead, but still provides a reasonable location to meet.
I go to a large church. I’ve tried to join small studies, but typically, when I call for information, no one calls me back. For all I know, the study no longer meets, but, without a call, what am I supposed to assume? “I guess they’re extremely busy? They picked up my voice message at 2am and forgot?” No. I usually figure, “Oh, wow, they don’t want me.” Or “Oh, wow, they could care less about my spiritual welfare.” Am I wrong? Acting entitled? Or just hurt?
“No one from my church visited me.” – What’s the story behind it? Were they ill? Had they called the church for help and no one responded? How many times did they call? I think too many times, churches need more office and pastoral staff to ensure the place runs smoothly and no one falls between the cracks. But, instead, they talk about bringing in more church members. Why not ensure you’re adequately caring for your flock, first?
Many people give 3-10% of their income to the church. What is the church supposed to do with that money? Care for the pastor, the staff and the building. Then, help needy church members, tithe to ministries, assist missionaries, help the persecuted church, assist pro-life ministries that help girls in their community, etc.
Love is not a ‘country club benefit’. And if the church is missing it on this one, they may as well close their doors.
I agree that many in the church need to learn what it is to be a servant, however, many of us would serve if leaders would ask. If leaders would help assess our gifts, our strengths, and say, “Hey, would you like to help out here?” Or “How would you like to help out? What’s in your heart?”, they’d likely find that a large portion of their congregation is willing and able to serve. But, we need to remember that mothers are some of the most sleep-deprived, over-worked people on the planet. If they can’t serve, don’t put them on a guilt trip.
I’m all for explaining the biblical meaning of the church. But, do a thorough search of the scriptures. Using scripture to just marginalize believers isn’t going to help anyone.
Mentoring is great. Yeah. It takes time. But, there are people who would love to help. Many seniors feel their life has no meaning. They’re just waiting for the grave. They could be filled with a greater sense of purpose, and younger people who are in grave need of support and guidance could be spared from divorce, falling away, and delivered from addictions.
A couple of churches I attended had great training. They offered seasonal or weekly classes, so they were never lacking volunteers. Others churches express they need help.
I prefer to leave the back door open. If someone comes to God’s house expecting some kind of magic from a group of humans they maybe should look at the bar crowd, where everyone knows their name including the police. I was in the back door gang until the pastor said, “You want friends be friendly. You want help be helpful. You want people to reach out, reach out with your own arms.” I used to warm a seat then hit the street. I started to put out a little bit of effort and found a gift is something for which nothing is expected in return. Until the church shopper puts away the poor me mirror the dack door will always need a coat of paint on the inside. Why do the cry babies have to get leprosy before they really get a hold of God ??? How about special needs ? You would have greater success with a cricket farm than a special needs program. OH, am I too harsh or are my Sunday shoes deteriorating from exposure to the tears of self centered cry babies?
thom really enjoyed your post here. i’ve been a minister at a small church as a minister and a elder. we went through a pastor resigning. and another preacher wanting the job. along with another one. it was not a easy time in the chruch. i think as men in leadership we all fail to many times. now there is a new pastor and not much leadership. i feel like i have no surport them any of them. so i feel now it’s time for me to move on. i’ve pray about it. and god has given me peace about it. i don’t think i’m giving up. i’m moving on.but my leaving the chruch on a good note.not blaming any one but myself for not being a better shower of gods love. thanks for your post it was a blessing to me,minister lee montgomery
Blessings to you Lee.
Please capitalize God when you are writing
There you go. Good job pastor bennett! You have given and accurate anecdotal example if why people are leaving the church. Because of crusty old attitudes like that. Of course God should be capitalized. But the writer if that post was obviously using very informal typing techniques. He didn’t capitalize anything. What if I told you I was one of the chosen people of Hebrew heritage and that I was offended that you even wrote the name of Elohim. Would you even get that reference? Bet you can’t show me a growing and vibrant church under your care! Just quit being crotchety silly.
There you go….go job Rabbi. You have given an accurate anecdotal example of why people are leaving the church. Because of young millennial attitudes like that. Of course god should be capitalized. But the writer of that post may not understand things the way you or I do. What if I told you……that many find it offensive in the church today because people on both sides point their crotchety or millennial little fingers at each other instead of at themselves, and we are sick of watching it. What if I told you……that a vibrant church has nothing to do with a ‘movement’, or a feeling. Just quit being so super spiritual, and try to have purpose in your life….oh what is purpose? try to keep from embarrassing God for 10 minutes at a time. See if You can accomplish that.
To those making excuses about not capitalizing God when writing. Why would anyone not take the time to capitalize God when they write a comment, or an article or anything? First of all, I’ve seen people in comment sections that will capitalize the names of problem people in their lives (their enemies) and yet spell God with a small g. I’ve seen those that will capitalize their friends names, their acquaintances names and their own names and yet spell God with a small g. Who doesn’t have time to Capitalize God?This is not legalistic; no one hates legalism more than I do. This trend of minimizing the name of God for convenience shows an attitude. God is not some home-boy or peer, He is GOD!
He deserve respect and honor. And that includes how we write HIS NAME. Remember He said to not take His name in vain……that means more than using His name in profanity, that means taking his name lightly. If you are too busy to give God honor in everything including writing His name, then you are simply TOO busy, and you shouldn’t be taking time to write comments on articles. This is one place where, if you are going to comment, spell everything you want with small letters, but give God the honor due to Him. And by the way, I am not a pastor or a preacher or a church leader, I am a middle aged woman who has been hurt by a certain church deeply, but God is healing me and I am so grateful to Him. I will not hold back the honor due to God because of what happened to me.
I know that this article is years old, but I think that my brain almost exploded over the responses to Pastor Lee’s post and the lack of capitalization of God.
Please keep in mind that many people are still not computer savvy and not be the best typists, especially those who have not grown up with the technology that we have today. Note that Pastor Lee’s comment was lacking capitalization throughout the whole paragraph. To me that indicates someone who may not be adept with typing or and not, as people seem to feel, lazy or disrespectful of God.
Sigh… That is the type of nonsense that turns people off from church. Instead to taking the time to understand people and their background, Christians automatically criticize and jump to conclusions.
Pastor Lee shared his pain and struggle and we jump on the lack of capitalization of God. SMH.
Pastor Lee, if you are still following this thread, I hope that you are doing well and have found comfort in that church or a new church.
Amen! God is not interested in the Pharisee spirit. I’m sure He could care less about capitalizing His name. He is concerned about the heart and our spiritual lives, not the letter of the law.
Lee,
Love to hear your thoughts, ideas and insight from that experience of multiple pastors after yours resigned. Is there anything you know now that you wish you’d have known then?
I have had several churches turn their back on me. When I was younger, it was because I had long hair. Later, I had a very painful divorce and when I called my pastor he just told me to let her go. She moved to another church, started seeing another sunday school teacher who was married and they said and did nothing. No matter how much I tried to reach out to her pastor, to reconcile with her she just wouldn’t listen. The irony is that she came back two years later only to leave me again after a month and go right back to this married man. I am hurt, confused, lost and feel betrayed. And the church remains silent on the matter. My faith has been crushed and I feel as if God has abandoned me no matter how hard I pray.
My husband I and went apart approximately 20 years ago. The divorce decree stipulate he pay child support. he never did. I complained to his pastor and my complain fell on deaf ears. Eventually he remarry and went on to make a new family. Our children are now full grown adults. The child support our children should have been getting and will never get is now going to his new found family. God would now have it that we are all at the same church. I don’t see neither my ex-husband nor his wife as my enemy. But it is a challenge for me. God has given me strength to overcome all the obstacles. The church doesn’t really address these things. Trust in God to see you through. The best years of your life is yet to come. God has not abandoned you. Hold on to his hands and allow Him to work out His purpose for your life.
Dear Fredo, unfortunately I think what’s happening is something that’s hard to hear. I think your pastor was right in saying let her go, especially since you describe her behavior. You, your Pastor, not even God will go against her free will to make her stay. We all have free will and God allows us to choose. She made her choice. It’s hard to hear that you have to let someone go and move on, but it happens. Now what God WILL do is emotionally heal you, strengthen you, help you overcome the hurt and help you find someone who is much better and deserving of you. He will teach us how to make better decisions in choosing mates if need be. However, your situation is not the churches fault. All they can do, at best, is offer advice, prayer and a comforting word. Be blessed.
Unfortunately, there are many needy people in the world; some with very complicated problem situations involving emotional and physical issues leading to a lifetime of baggage; some requiring professional help.
Most churches do their best, but it is very unfair to walk into a church and dump a lifetime of problems into a pastor or elders lap and expect them to fix it for you….like…. right this minute. And in many cases some words of encouragement and prayer is the best that can be offered.
Perhaps a biblically centered approach would help with your dilemma?!?
God doesn’t give you anything you can’t handle…and if these “lifetime of baggage” people appear at your door, who are you to turn them away? And what right has God given you to do so? And is encouragement and prayer really the best you can do? I challenge anyone on that.
Perhaps a biblically centered approach would help with your dilemma?!?
God doesn’t give you anything you can’t handle…and if these “lifetime of baggage” people appear at your door, who are you to turn them away? And what right has God given you to do so? And is encouragement and prayer really the best you can do? I challenge anyone on that.
Very good point!
Sometimes we tend to forget that the church is hospital for the sick……not a hotel for the saints.
Jesus said….”it’s not the well that needs healed”.
very comforting words.I agree with you and I do believe DAT frado should move on and that God has a better plan for him….will like to know more about u and your faith in Jesus Christ.
Actually, part of that is his churches fault. They could have easily not allowed her to attend – which is the Biblical response to someone who refuses to repent of sin. If she was flirting with a married man, and the church knew of this and was allowing it, and was letting that man continue to *teach* there is a huge problem.
When Hosea’s wife returned to prostitution, God didn’t tell him to ‘let her go’ but to seek her out and redeem her. When God’s people turned away after other gods and God ‘divorced’ Israel for her promiscuity in this way, God still sought after her to reconcile.
It’s a *huge* problem in the church when anyone, divorcee or not, is allowed to blatantly flaunt sexual sin meanwhile those who are interested in reconciliation are told to just forget about it.
Let’s not forget that we are supposed to reconcile with our brethren – spouses or not. This takes priority even over ‘giving gifts’ at the altar (e.g. offerings or service.) While that process of reconciliation may or may not end in a new marriage, if there is anything still painful between two brothers/sisters in Christ the church should be helping them work it out and holding them accountable to working it out – not just dismissing it as impossible.
First of all my beloved brother Fredo, Never allow anything that anyone see is or anything that you may go through Put you in a state of mind way you ever believe that God has abandoned you. He has not.
Secondly, Please Do not think that it is God’s will That these things are taking place in your life. Our Heavenly Father gave us a something that maybe we could have done without. Smile. He gave us, “FREE WILL”. He gave us the right to choose The path and direction we desire to travel. The power to choose can sometimes be a dangerous thing.
I agree with what Pastor Sam says… free will chosen may not always be God’s will. God gave each person free will… do choose God’s way… or our own selfishways. Yes, things happen for a reason, but sometimes that reason is because someone did not choose God’s will.
But, God will never abandon you… we need only to open the door and invite Him into our hearts… and mind (reading His Holy Word… search the scriptures). “… they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily,” (Acts. 17:11)
God is always there for us.
I’m not condemning anyone who are going through this moment of suffering. But brother, you have to understand that God has never abandon you, God never abandon his children who love him and trust him and wait for him, and for sure he heard your prayer. God has seen your hurt, and if God has been silent is because he know better. You have to ask yourself, what the bible says about this matter and do follow it and do them. God has giving us the word for us to know what we must do in a situation like this. I can tell you that you no matter how much you love her, if she is not willing to love you back there nothing you will be able to do about it , love can’t be force on a person, love come and it is a voluntary love without any pressure. what you need to do is to put your mind and trust in God. The bible says, seek first the Kingdom of God and his Righteousness and then he will give you the desire of your heart. When something was not meant to be there nothing you can do to change that, but God always has the best things for you and when you never expecting you will rejoice so much on how good it was to wait on the Lord. Because everything that the Lord God gives to us are good and last long. Trust him he will never fail you. God bless brother.
Do not lose faith in God. Remember people and God are not the same. The reality is that most churches are not up to par.
It’s not yawls Church it Jesus is the head of the church you just own the building that the Church gathers at. So to sound so mean just have to say what the Word of The Lord says.
GODS CHURCH. Thank you You just own the building.
I feel we are living in the last days. But I do not understand Christian churches who have 3 services on a Sunday morning service. But no Sunday night services at all. There are more and more people who have to work on a Saturday/Sunday morning like [ 6 to 2] [7 to 3 ] [8 to 4 ]. A lot of those people have no choice. It’s like there already wearing the mark of the beast. I have heard of pastors say we can’t because of no money funds. Small group meetings I am in an agreement of. But Sunday night service your not going to make any excuses. I find my pastor is more concern who’s going to win the Sunday Football Super Bowl.
Yes, JESUS said “make disciples” which is mentoring. I preach that you can not only BRING the word and expect it to transform people. The LORD prepares a table and also makes us to lie down in a place of rich sustenance. We must both bring the word as well as bring the feeble TO the table to dine. Make certain people are getting what’s being shared, empathetic ministry, which is all true ministry could ever be (empathetic). Many churches fail or struggle because they refuse to fix systems that are not user-friendly.
My family has recently left a church after 9 1/2 years. 2 years ago we got a new pastor. This has not been an easy decision. I truly did feel like our pastor wasn’t pastoring us. I hope and pray I don’t have a “entitlement ” attitude. I went to my pastor a couple of different times and could not even get counsel or prayer offered from him. Once I told him I was backsliding and needed some help. He replied, ” hang in there it happens.” I let it go and just started seeking more of God, things got better. During a church revival I went forward and spoke with my pastor during invitation. I told him God was speaking to me about serving in the church again and I was passionate about seeking lost people and going out visiting lost people. His reply, ” that’s great” no prayer offered or follow up. I let that go. Then my mother in-law lay dying in hospital for 4 days and he never visited. We are a small southern baptist church of about 135 active members and the pastor speaks of visiting dying family members often.
I understand that we should not just get mad and leave , but when pastors continually do not shepherd the flock, don’t you think we have to move on sometimes? i have beat myself up and keep thinking it is something I did to make him not want to help our family. This has been a heartbreaking thing for us.
Our church seems to be experiencing problems. Some of the members who sought counsel from 1 or more of the assistant pastors about personal issues in their lives later heard about their conversations with the pastors from other staff members. It appears that the staff members are gossiping about what some members have confided in. When one of the affected members brought this up to the Senior Pastor, he in a sense dismissed her and later suggested she might want to find another church. Gossip is harmful and even toxic when the church staff is engaging in it and repeating what should be confidential. How to stop this?
Could it be quite possibly that you seen good results with one on one mentoring because you took the time to share the gospel of love? I mean how does the church (people) expect to show gods love outside of the church when they have a hard time showing it in the church. This article of entitlement and lack of servitude being the reason just shows how much church has lost its way. It’s become a institution that has actually taken people out of it. It becomes more of a social club with #’s and baptisms judging the health of the church. Come on people (church)wake up! Show the gospel of love to your brother and sisters in christ by going to those people and connecting. Then we can go outside and show that same gospel of love to our neighbors.
I agree with your comment so much. It is hard to stay in a community that does not seem to care. Churches are made up of broken people who have created broken systems. We all must show mercy. Sometimes it’s better to leave than to do a big confrontation. For me, I am in the process of confronting. I find several church practices completely unacceptable. Failing to comfort the broken hearted is unacceptable to me. Failing to have adequate evangelism is unacceptable to me. Failing to give opportunity to do wonderful things to build the Kingdom of God is unacceptable. The church itself has become an exclusive club whereby only certain people are qualified to do certain things. According to the Bible, Jesus is head of the church and we are all just brothers. This is what Jesus tried to explain to the Pharisees. When the blind man got healed, he tried to explain that he was blind and now he can see. The Pharisees dismissed him saying, “You cannot teach us.” However, the blind man understood truth better than they did. The church is now exclusive instead of inclusive. Those not included need a place to go.
I agree with you Lori. I left the church because I was never accepted as a mentally ill person with depression . People manipulated my family and used us as lab rats. It’s now about 15 years since we quit church and now I finally see Jesus as He is. He is love for my family. He cares and He heals.
Please do not ASSUME people left due to entitlement. Do you actually have data and surveys that support this theory? I know for a fact that I left to avoid engagement with others who sought power as I never sought to be a leader in life, yet I have been one that many have consulted since I was very young for whatever reason.
Additionally, please remember a church is a congregation of PEOPLE. Can you get along with ALL people in your life? Just like in business, a “manager” or church leadership, can make or break the “community.”
I could also refer to many biblical references. However, I am sure that you know them all.
Please open your doors and do not push anyone away with posts like this.
What my question is if you are doing all these things and the pastor gives you a letter asking why you are not looking at him while he is ministering, how should one answer or take this question. I look up and down because many times I’m taking notes or focusing on what he is saying as not to be distracted. The pastor and his wife are taking this as not having a pure heart. This is the person as to whom I am. I have been a member for more than 5 years and they have known me to be the same since becoming a member. How do one handle?
What my question is if you are doing all these things and the pastor gives you a letter asking why you are not looking at him while he is ministering, how should one answer or take this question. I look up and down because many times I’m taking notes or focusing on what he is saying as not to be distracted. The pastor and his wife are taking this as not having a pure heart. This is the person as to whom I am. I have been a member for more than 5 years and they have known me to be the same since becoming a member. How do one handle?
Well, I haven’t heard of anyone leaving because the pastor was “told” to visit a “cousin” but didn’t. My family went to two churches, one traditional and one AOG. I had a muscular dystrophy and then my husband got cancer. The AOG pastor treated us as though: we might be making it up, then that people who give and believe are healed…(So what “problem did we have that caused our sickness?”)When my husband’s remission ended, he *never* came, despite our regular attendance and gifts. He acted put off. My husband *was dying* at home and that church did nothing… Only one man there helped us a bit, but as though bending down to people lower than himself (we had never seen his home in all the years we were friends).
Only when my husband was dead did that pastor call to offer the church for a funeral. Instead, I elected to go to the Catholic Church where a priest had visited him dozens of times. As a lay person, I have visited the sick and dying far more and do not have a nice car to show for it. Those who didn’t manifest speaking in tongues and give large amounts seemed to be ignored. That’s not being entitled. It’s just noticing obvious painful abuses…
I wanted to add one reason. Some people may have had at one time a great willingness to serve their church but then were hurt by leadership gone awry and now is crippled by fear and the inability to trust church leadership.
Exactly what I would comment on. The Pastor and Elders should seek out a one on one relationship with the flock. Now this does not mean that a Pastor has to continually converse with the member every time they see one another. That would be ridiculous and not genuine. A Pastor that is viewed as very distant is a set back for the church. Distant feeling members will not get involved in the church activities and they certainly won’t want to be of service. Plain and simple. The leaders need to get out their inner circle of friends and make others feel they are included in his ministry. Otherwise you have members that are not committed or they decide to leave.
mine is issue that some members show no respect to Pastor and always when they preach they talk of themselves this discourage people .
what way we use to tell those to reform
It seems alot of responsibility is put on the pastor. Is there a example in new testament of a voted in pastor too preach sermons week after week for years,visit the sick,bury the flocks family members when they pass,etc.? Also the holy Spirit is supposed to have the freedom too place each member (sheep) in his or her functioning position. It seems the pastor has been made responsible for the body’s functioning an in turn it takes away from the brides organic expression of Jesus Christ. Instead of allowing the Lord Jesus to place them in the body so they can exercise there gifts and corporately express Jesus’ beautiful bride as One. Maybe some leave bc there is no building that can hold a Love that is only expressed through the whole body functioning under the heads hip of Jesus Christ Alone. His Love cannot be harnessed in a way that dims his light. With good intention ,I think most christians want to serve in ther church. Has the church become more about other things rather than the one thing. Jesus has to be the reference point. By him,through him,for him,to him. No big i’s an no little u’s. His bride is either flowing in step with her grooms new song and drawing multitudes to him through her free expression of his reciprocating Love. Or she is fragmented an stepping all over her grooms feet thus expressing a song that he never wrote. Are we doing this His wa?
Thom,
Do you think part of the problem may well be that the “model” of the church locations may be failing? In other words, the neighborhood church versus the ability to go within 100 miles because the change of the culture. (Horse and Buggy vs Car). I know that there are a TON of churches in my hometown and many are small and dying..and the bigger churches are growing through the attrition of the smaller. What are your thoughts about that?