I consider myself a very blessed man in a number of ways. This blog has become one of my great blessings. One of the reasons I love this blog community is the variety of people who interact on it. There has been an increase in the number of people who aren’t Christians who comment on various posts. I want to share with you the perspective of one young woman on how she views Christians. These comments come directly from her comments on some of my posts. They have not been changed.
On Being Selfish, Not Really Interested in Others
I remember a rather outspoken evangelical Christian young woman I worked with – I’d just moved to town, and we went to a movie together. Each week she invited me to her church, and I didn’t want to offend her by saying “No thanks.” As it was, I had Buddhist activities one Sunday and I was mentoring a young girl two other Sundays, but that theoretically left a Sunday open. We only worked together for 3 months, and it never worked out. I went to a different job.
She showed up there one night, and jumped right to the church invite. No “Hey, how’ve you been? Haven’t seen you in a while!” Nope – just “Do you want to come to church with me this weekend?” Since I was on to her game, I decided to play. I said, “Sure, I’ll go to church with you, because I’m interested in seeing what you’re interested in. That’s what friends do, after all. And I’m sure you’ll want to come with me to a Buddhist meeting to see what I’m interested in, right?”
“Oh no!” she replied. “I just love the Lord so much!”
“Well,” I said, “then there’s no point in me going to your church because I’m not interested in either becoming a Christian or joining your church.” I never saw her again.
That’s how far Christian friendship extends – I’ve seen it over and over and over. Christians look at everyone else as if they’ve got targets painted on their foreheads. Nobody likes being hunted down or treated like someone else’s project. We don’t need to drop all our beliefs just to accept yours, and we don’t need to become more like you just to be acceptable people, worthy of being regarded as people instead of targets. Love does not seek to create clones of itself. Selfishness does.
On Being Self-centered and Judgmental
Keep your religious beliefs to yourself. If I have any interest in what you believe, I’ll ask you. And if I don’t ask you, then go right ahead and assume that your “witnessing” will be unwelcome. I’m sure that you like whatever you believe very much, and I’m very happy that you like it. However, just as your favorite flavor of ice cream is not necessarily going to be mine, I wish you would assume that I’m just as content with my own beliefs (or lack thereof) as you are with yours. Why not ask me first what *I* believe? Why not show an interest in what’s interesting to me instead of expecting me to always be interested in what YOU’RE interested in? Christians are so selfish and self-centered! Tell me – when was the last time an atheist rang your doorbell to tell you about his worldview? The reason the world hates Christians is because they behave badly, they’re rude, boorish, arrogant, conceited, full of themselves, ignorant, and judgmental. Go ahead – accuse me of being judgmental now. Doesn’t matter – I don’t claim to follow a belief system that has actual rules AGAINST being judgmental, so it’s *fine* for me to be!
On Being Unwilling to Develop True Friendships with Non-Christians
As a mother of young children in a homeschooling environment, we found ourselves surrounded by Christians. Of course, the kids would become friends and we moms would chat while they played. Without a single exception, this “acquaintanceship” only progressed to the point that I had to make it clear that no, I would not acceptjesusasmypersonalsavior, and no, I would not be attending their church. Then the Christians never called again, and I was left to explain to my sad children why their new friends wouldn’t be playing with them any more.
When my son was just 6, the boys down the street told him he was not allowed to play with them because he wasn’t a Christian. I went down to see what was going on (because my 4-yr-old daughter was going to go down there and teach those boys a lesson!) and I confirmed that what my son had reported was indeed what they’d said. And the mother of one was right out in the front yard, 25 feet from me, pretending to be very focused on trimming some plants. She never said a word.
Finally, the 6-yr-old girl across the street told my kids, ages 7 and 9, that if they weren’t Christians, they would be going to hell. She certainly learned the “Good News”. And you Christians wonder why we non-Christians avoid you?? HINT: It’s not because we’re intimidated by your awesomeness and are just sitting here, pining for you, wishing you would like us. We already know you don’t.
Your Response?
Frankly, I found these comments painfully true for many of us. Though my first reaction was one of defensiveness, the more I read them, the more I realize that this women has identified many of us Christians too clearly.
What do you think? What is your response?
Posted on June 15, 2013
With nearly 40 years of ministry experience, Thom Rainer has spent a lifetime committed to the growth and health of local churches across North America.
More from Thom
302 Comments
I was raised going to church and calling myself a Christian, but in the past six or seven years or so have had the desire to be a better person. Part of this “becoming a better person” for ME means not belonging to any religion at all. I see affirmation of my decision all the time and find great truth in quotes such as:
“Religion- giving hope in a world torn apart by religion.”
“We were all born atheists until someone brainwashed us.”
Can’t you see? We are all born different and to different cultures. One who calls himself a Christian would likely call himself a Muslim if they were born in Pakistan or somewhere. Who’s to say what religions are right and wrong? Religions are dangerous because they divide societies, neighbors, families, ect.
I often wonder how we got this way and how people can continually feed into the dangerous groups that are religions. Sad that the world is so divided and that even though people may agree that we’re divided over religions that they would still participate in the very religion that is part of the division.
Hoping that you’re still with me and open minded to what I’m saying. I’m wrapping this up soon. I remember when I was a Christian thinking that others who weren’t Christians were lost and thinking that there was absolutely NOTHING that could change my mind about being a Christian. But now I feel like people who have been brainwashed into religions are the ones who are lost and there is nothing that can change my mind of that. I can only hope that more and more people come to these realizations about religion and realize that life will go on no matter what religion you believe or don’t believe in and that the power to be happy and successful lies inside of you and in the vast universe that we’re all a part of. Be well.
I’m not a Christian but rather a Buddhist, however, I don’t really consider myself to be particularly religious person in any case. I think that a lot of my Christian friends and acquaintances find that me not being a Christian is offensive to them. They think that is trying to prove them wrong or something like that. The truth is I don’t really care that they believe in something different. I don’t think their reaction really has much to do with them being Christian, I think it’s just human nature. People generally don’t like what’s different. I think that’s a mistake though. I have Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, and Hindu friends. I find it interesting to discover more about each one of their diverse beliefs. We should learn from each other, but not expect each other to conform to our beliefs. I preach nothing of Buddhism unless they ask. And very few do. Anyway, I wish some of my Christian friends would just relax. Just because someone believes something different from you doesn’t mean they want to dismantle your beliefs (I realize some do, but not all of us)..
To have one’s beliefs compared to ice cream is very strange. I couldn’t disagree more with her comments on having beliefs. In America everyone is entitled to one’s opinion and it’s protected in the Bill of Rights. In the same paragraph the author then goes on about judgmental attitudes and being rude. I completely agree with her that Christians should not be judgmental and rude, but does that mean Christians cannot share their beliefs in appropriate ways and in meaningful conversations? Unless you’re talking about ice cream, then it’s okay to share one’s thoughts, but venture into values, beliefs and faith issues, then everyone and everything is out of bounds. How can one discuss spiritual things and have meaningful dialogue without real information? And remember… there are very serious opinions on ice cream so be careful. Have a nice day.
I am a Christian, and I would appreciate the opinions of some of you commentators out there (who do NOT consider yourselves Christians) on a friendship I’ve developed with a co-worker. Christians, feel free to comment too, but I’d really like the insights of those outside the Christian “bubble”.
My co-worker has a nominally Christian background, but does not really identify as a Christian nor make any attempt to maintain those roots. In fact, from our interactions I get the impression he hovers somewhere between indifference and resistance.
Though there were barriers to overcome, I managed to form a friendship with this co-worker (initially it was about 95% my own efforts and later he made a small effort, too). From the very beginning, my only reason for pursuing this friendship was because I appreciate him as a person and he is basically the only positive person at our workplace. Of course, as a Christian I do hope to have a conversation about my beliefs at some point and have asked God to give me that chance, but I have never forced that conversation to happen. He knows I’m a Christian (without my having to tell him), so I’m just waiting for him to ask questions if he wants to. I will admit, however, that it is hard to hold my tongue at times because I do take my beliefs seriously…
Instead of immediately inviting him to church or telling him his soul is doomed, we have normal conversations about life, the weather, work, etc. We enjoy our conversations and I believe it is encouraging for both of us in an otherwise dreary job. We have a lot of good laughs together and have dealt with some difficult problems, as well.
At some point, I invited him to dinner with my family which he seemed interested in but ultimately declined. I tried other various invitations over time, all of which were received positively at first and then either “forgotten” or declined again… I tried hard to prove to him that I was interested in simply getting to know him as a friend and spending time together, but it didn’t seem to work. Anytime I’ve offered an invitation to do something outside work together, my co-worker seems depressed and distances himself from me until I rescind my offer – at which point we are on good terms again… I don’t offer him invitations anymore because I finally recognized the pattern, but I don’t understand what’s behind it and it’s extremely frustrating not to be able to develop this relationship outside of our work when we have more time to just do whatever and share life.
He will accept gifts (hesitantly) so I’ve at least been able to do that. And one time (just once) he gave me a gift instead of the other way around.
So my questions is this… Those of you who do not consider yourselves to be Christians, can you give me some insight into why my co-worker has made it so difficult to maintain our friendship and rejected every friendly invitation? Why is it that I get a response of depression or coldness when I’m just trying to be nice? From what I’ve written, can you tell me if I’ve made a Christian error somewhere that makes me seem like I’m just trying to convert him or force him to talk about Jesus? That has never been my intention… Is it possible he’s afraid of my Christian-ness, perhaps…? If so, how do you suggest I reassure him that I’m first and foremost a friend and not an “evangelizer” trying to add him to a list of success stories.
To this date, we have yet to have a single real conversation about Christianity, so I can hardly be called pushy!
Hi 🙂
As an ex-christian, I hope my words maybe help offer some insight? You’ve kinda answered your own question in your question. :\ When I read what you share, I think you’re maybe not being honest with yourself, and more than likely your coworker sees and or feels what you’re not acknowledging?
You’re saying this in one moment…
“the only reason for pursuing this friendship was because I appreciate him as a person”
and in the very next sentence you go on to say…
“Of course, as a Christian I do hope to have a conversation about my beliefs at some point and have asked God to give me that chance, but I have never forced that conversation to happen…. so I’m just waiting for him to ask questions if he wants to. I will admit, however, that it is hard to hold my tongue at times because I do take my beliefs seriously…Instead of immediately inviting him to church or telling him his soul is doomed.”
So while you’re telling yourself that you you appreciate him as a person for who he is, what you’re feeling in the back of your mind is that habit of waiting for your chance to offer your beliefs, what you consider to be “the truth”, so that you can change your friend to be better, because “his soul is doomed”.
Because of what you have been taught as a Christian, you feel that without “your truth” and “your beliefs”, other people are “lost”. You assume he’s waiting to ask questions about your religion, when really, he might truly not be interested because Christianity isn’t for him. And I hope this doesn’t come out wrong :(, but what you describe in your question is someone who is going through sort of a grooming? phase in a sense, like you’re trying to convince this friend that you won’t try to change him – but in reality you do believe he his not yet on the “right path”, and you ARE always waiting for the moments to come where you can offer him “the truth”. People sense intentions. People feel energy. I’m sure your friend feels it. Or at the very least he knows that as a Christian you believe those things, and it’s only a matter of time before you go into “evangelism mode”.
Non-christians aren’t “afraid of your Christian-ness”… but we are put off by your inability to honor and love people as they are, and respect that their own beliefs are just as valid to them, as yours are to you. As someone who was raised Christian, I remember being taught to think like that, and now as a non-Christian, it’s one of the things about Christianity I resent the most. Have you turned this situation around? Imagine your friend being part of another religion, and believing that as a Christian you are lost, and all through your friendship in that back of his mind he was just waiting for the chance to invite you to his church, or expose you to “the truth”, and save you from Christianity? You would resist with all your might someone trying to separate you from your truth and replace it with theirs. So when you think of how your friend is reacting to you… just turn the situation around and imagine if he was thinking and feeling towards you, how you have been towards him.
If you truly want to have a genuine friendship with him, you have to honestly decide that you can love and appreciate your friend as he is, and let go of ANY need to EVER change him. Accepting that there is nothing wrong with him, and nothing about him that you need to “fix” or “save”. Realizing that he is beautiful and wonderful as he is. Honoring that his journey, with or without your beliefs, is just that – his journey – not yours. Trust that the God you believe in made your friend perfectly as he was meant to be. Unless you let go of the idea that people need to live how you think they should live, and be who you think they should be, you’ll never truly see and know and love people for who they truly are.
Thank you, kbell! You make some very good points. I appreciate your feedback immensely.
The really hard part is that as a Christian my way of loving others goes deeper than an emotional or brotherly love. Because of my beliefs, if I really love someone I can’t be satisfied with just their physical well-being. I want them to be spiritually well, too. And from the perspective of someone outside Christianity, this comes across as me thinking I’m right and everyone else is wrong. I could be wrong, but what if I’m not?
My goal is never to force anyone to be converted. As you point out correctly, it’s impossible. My friend will be who he is no matter what I do and I can love him and appreciate him anyway – which I already do! Even from my faith I draw the same conclusion, as I believe God is the only one who can really bring a person to a place of true conversion (in the heart, not just the mind). And Jesus certainly loved everyone, no matter who they were.
Telling myself that my friend doesn’t need to be “fixed” or “saved”… If I really believe what I say I do, then unfortunately my friend Does need to be saved (I would never use the term “fixed”!). That doesn’t mean that he isn’t already great the way he is! A person can be a beautiful person whether or not they are a Christian, but I’m looking at what might come After their beautiful life and hoping for a beautiful eternity for them, too. Does that make any sense…? :\
This whole thing is extremely frustrating because some of the things you recommend I change in my thinking I simply can’t do without compromising what I believe. I can’t be a true Christian and not be concerned about my friend’s status with God. It just cannot be…
On a positive note, my friend has become much more open and responsive to my friendship efforts. And that’s all it is. Simple, no-strings-attached friendship. I’m not sure what changed, but I guess a little bit of time has finally convinced him that I appreciate him as he is and have no plans to force him into being something else.
Hey Lawrence,
I appreciate you sharing, it’s good to hear your friendship has gotten better :). In your response though, I hear you strengthening your resolve in what I was offering to you as what the underlying conflict is. You firmly believe that someone who believes different than you is lost and spiritually unwell, and that it’s your place to step in and help rectify their spiritual path. Those who believe differently than you are not lost or spiritually unwell or without truth, we just have a different set of beliefs and a different truth than you. And regardless if you agree or acknowledge that, one’s personal relationship with God is simply a boundary that no one has a right to cross. The best way I can express it is that spirituality is sacred and intimate. When you try to push your beliefs on others, you’re not doing God’s work, you’re stepping on God’s toes.
Because I was raised fundamentalist I understand what you are saying in that it’s how you believe, and I do know what it’s like to believe that, but as someone who is on a different path now, I can see how that way of believing is simply a lack of respect for other people’s sovereignty. If you truly want the freedom of your beliefs, than in the same way that you cherish your beliefs, you have to respect that other people cherish their own beliefs just as fiercely. It’s of course your choice to continue to think how you think now, but then having that unwillingness to offer mutual respect to others beliefs, you’ll more than likely experience this same thing again and again throughout your life in friendships and relationships.
Sorry it’s taken me so long to reply, kbell!
Actually… in my reply above I said I believe that God is the only one who can change a person’s heart and all I can do is be who I am and let my friend decide for himself if he’d like to know more about my beliefs. That means, just being a Christian and pursuing a relationship with Jesus and keeping myself open to any conversations that happen along the way. I’ll let THEM cross the border if they want to. There’s nothing disrespectful or forceful about that. I’ll stay ready to explain it. That’s all.
I’m well aware of the intimacy of others’ spiritual lives. For many, it IS life. I studied world religions in depth while in college, so I know how delicate an issue this is. I’m sorry you grew up in a Fundamentalist home, since I know how that can leave you with a bunch of beliefs with few satisfying answers.
However, I don’t agree that simply sharing my beliefs with someone is equivalent to stepping on God’s toes… And I don’t agree that there is more than one truth. How can you explain the very places in the Bible where God says He is the only God and his Truth is the only truth? Either it’s true, or the God of the Bible is the ONLY god in the world that’s fake. Every time I go down the path of doubting God’s existence, he proves himself to me again. I’ve seen His works too clearly to doubt that the God of the Bible is the real God. Thus, I believe what He says about himself in his Word and take it as truth.
People can defend their beliefs as much as they like. And I’ll do the same to the best of my ability. I respect people 100%, but certain belief systems… that’s another subject.
So, whether I’m disrespectful or narrow-minded or right… the reality is, I have very few enemies amongst those who really know me. 🙂
Thank goodness I never associate myself with people like you.
I don’t want my last moment on earth, when I am ready to embrace death as my final destination, to be a Christian soapbox.
When I trust someone who TRULY ACCEPTS me for who I am, I don’t raise any defence
This is insidious. Christians want to get close to people just to save them.
Let me tell you one thing, Mr. Christian, in case we encounter in life. I have a spiritual belief, too. I don’t know for a certain where I’m going to when I’m gone, and I AM ALL RIGHT WITH THAT.
I don’t need to be saved from being human. If your Christian hell is real, I will choose it over Christian heaven.
I would rather burn in hell for eternity along with Gandhi, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Nelson Mandela,… than spend a second in heaven with a totalitarian dictator like Yahweh. Especially, if any humanity in me is still there after I die, spending eternity in heaven with a tyrant worshippers like your is worse than living in eternal darkness with compassionate people.
Late to the party, but Lawrence, do you *really* think that your friend, raised in the USA, by your own account from a *Christian background*, somehow doesn’t KNOW about your “God” and your “Jesus”? Trust me – he already knows! We ALL know already!
What are you going to tell him that he hasn’t already heard dozens of times? Are you *truly* such a Magic Christian™ that simply hearing *your perspective* is going to change everything for this person who already knows everything you’re going to say? Is the sound of your voice what’s going to make the difference – *this* time?
You’re spinning this in the way that you can feel good about it, but you’re missionary-dating this guy. We can always *feel* it when someone’s trying to maneuver us into a sermon, and we don’t like it. That’s why he’s been so standoffish and unwilling to accept invitations from you – he can TELL what you’re up to! You may *think* you’re being sneaky here, but he can tell you’re attempting to manipulate him, and he’s obviously on to this kind of come-on.
What you need to ask yourself – *honestly*, this time – is how you’re going to feel about your “friendship” with this coworker when you *finally* get him backed against that wall and he tells you straight out, “No, I will never attend or join your church; I want nothing whatsoever to do with your religion; I will never acceptjesusasmypersonalsavior.” Just *having* that conversation will cause PERMANENT damage to any possibility that you and he might have a genuine friendship going forward – remember that. And if you DO press things, make him feel obligated to clarify his complete non-interest, which he’d rather not do (he’d rather just be let alone and not pestered about JEEEEZIS), HE is likely to want nothing further to do with you.
Is this going to be “collateral damage” to you? Just the cost of being the Right Kind of Christian? Will you decide at that point that you tried your best and he’s just a hard-hearted nonbeliever, so whatever? What if he IS willing to be friends going forward, just without any Christianity whatsoever involved? Do you think YOU can do that? Just be friends without scheming and planning for how you’re going to launch into your jeezissy sales pitch at the opportune moment, guaranteed of SUCCESS!!! because you are so *certain* that God has pointed you toward this moment and fired you at this person? PEW PEW PEW!
I would like to share my heart on this. Please know what I share is not to attack. I truly appreciate that there are Christians open to discussing this topic, and I truly appreciate reading the conversation in these comments, because these kinds of conversations are exactly the kinds of conversations that people of all faiths, religions, and secular beliefs need to be open to having if we truly do want to understand and grow and live in a world together.
I was raised a Christian. It was all I knew, and it was “the truth”. But I spent my entire childhood with the people around me claiming Christianity was “the right way”, yet my world was filled with fear, hypocrisy, judgment, hatred, hostility, arrogance, misogyny, and in my own home, there was horrible abuse. It wasn’t by any means just my family though, so the abuse in my home isn’t the main issue here, and it wasn’t just at one single church I experienced these things – we moved around a lot and I experienced the same behaviors and energy I mentioned above at every church I went to from churches in the deep South, to churches in California. I was surrounded by fear driven, hypocritical, oppressive, judgmental, miserable, hateful, unawakened people. Again, I don’t say that to attack, it’s just the truth of what I experienced my entire life.
When I graduated high school I left my home and was no longer forced to go to church, so I stopped going. I began to study all religions just out of curiosity and the desire to learn, and just in general, I started interacting with more people of different faiths, spiritual practices, belief systems. Not only have I met so many truly loving, kind, inspired, genuinely good, amazing people, but I have begun to seek a connection to God outside of any religion, just through exploring spirituality, and through my own path that my heart guides me on. I have never felt more free, kind, loving, inspired, and closer to God than I have since leaving Christianity behind. Looking back, the one thing that kept me from a connection to God more than anything was Christians themselves and their religion. Now my connection to God is no longer blocked by people and their egos and the fear based beliefs. And I feel like people who know me would say that I am loving, kind, accepting, honorable, good, and inspiring and that I have a beautiful soul – just by who I am as a person – not by anything I’ve ever spoken about in terms of any specific beliefs I have. Just saying “I’m a Christian” doesn’t mean anything or make you any certain way. It doesn’t make you good or kind or loving – being good and kind and loving does. Goodness and light are who you are and how you live – not a group you join or qualities that are automatically assigned to you by default just because you are part of that group.
Please understand that what so many of us around you see from Christians is not any kind of love or light or goodness. For me, the past few years have exposed in the United States, to an extreme level, the kind of Christianity I described experiencing in my childhood. The hypocrisy, judgment, hatred, hostility, arrogance, misogyny and outright un-Christ-like behavior from so many Christians has been beyond awful. Yet instead of Christians looking in the mirror and reflecting on their own hearts, Christians have spent the past few years building up a narrative that they are suffering some massive oppression or being held back from practicing their beliefs. What you are experiencing is just other people having in their own beliefs. That’s not an attack on you, you are just a free as you ever have been to be strong in what you believe, but what you believe isn’t right for everybody, and that’s OK.
The biggest thing hurting Christians, is Christians themselves. I truly feel like the biggest and most destructive flaw Christians have is that you focus on what’s outside of you rather than what’s happening within your own hearts. And with the perpetual external focus, you have decided your way is “the right way” for everybody, and you focus so much energy on trying to influence, judge, and control others. In doing that you not only push people away, but you lack the focus on your own internal work and own personal journeys. It’s not your job to try to control anyone’s beliefs, feelings, actions, or journeys, other than your own. And while you’re so focused on what others are doing in their journeys, are you really nurturing your journey? Are you growing? Are you looking in your own hearts? Are you truly genuinely listening to God, or are you just ingesting and recycling and repeating rhetoric? Are you truly filled with love and reflecting light into the world?
If Christians continue to be a group of people focused on trying to condemn and judge and control and fight against what is outside themselves, rather than looking inward in your own hearts and being willing to grow and evolve within yourselves, you will continue to push people away from you rather than shining a light into the world. The biggest thing preventing others from seeing the light in you is the unwillingness most of you have to look inside and truly seek and uncover that light within yourselves. Please keep an open heart to this topic and be willing to listen and maybe even look inside and allow growth within yourselves. I think Christians might find that being a representative of the Christ you say you follow is so incredibly different than anything that Christianity has become today.
So much truth, kbell. Thank you. And have a great Christmas. Your words remind me how I need to show the love of Christ with consistency.
Thank you for listening and allowing this space. I still have family who are Christians and the divide in those personal connections has become deeper than ever the past few years. The more I seek and find my connection with God in a way that brings me peace and hope, the more they reject me because it’s different than what they believe. It’s heartbreaking because I love them so much, but because they are so focused on judging me and trying to “get me back in line with who they think I should be”, they are missing out on the opportunity to truly know who I am and love me for me. At times it makes it harder for me to just openly love them back because I feel so much resentment about their rejection and judgment. I stumbled on your article today and this gave my heart hope that conversations like what is shared here can create healing and love between Christians and others who have chosen a different way. I hope you have a great Christmas too.
I found this site because I am doing a study of why people attend or do not attend church? What non-believers think of Christians? Any input would be appreciated.
This scripture says it all about witnessing. John 6:44(NIV)
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
People’s hearts are hard If the Holy Spirit is not working on them. We need to pray and ask God to show us the people He would desire us to witness to. Only God opens the doors for us to witness.
I don’t appreciate when people put all Christians in one category. We are all different. God should not be blamed for the behavior of some Christians.
Yes, all Christians are different. You do share a common belief, however, and that is that the Bible is the true and only word of God. We “non” Christians simply don’t believe that to be the case, but other than that, we don’t have much in common with each other. Some of us are atheists, or agnostics, and some of us believe there are limitless ways to a profound and vital relationship with God.
You believe there is only one. So your attempts to convert us to what we see as a narrower path fall on deaf ears: why should we renounce a world of infinite possibilities for what we perceive as a restricted one?
There is no one answer to your question, “what do non-Christians think of Christians?” Atheists probably think you’re delusional. Agnostics probably don’t know what to think. And people like me think you’ve found a way that works; your blindness lies in your conviction that it’s the ONLY way.
BTW, the term “non-Christian” smacks of bias – like calling someone a “non-blond” would tend to suggest that being blond is somehow better. I would not think of referring to myself as a “non-anything.”
You are really kind as an atheist.
I am not an atheist, and I will not be kind to Christians.
The thought that I have to love people who sincerely endorses the doctrine “I deserve to suffer for eternity for failing to accept Jesus regardless of my characters” makes me want to vomit.
I don’t know how atheists are able to engage in a meaningful conversation with Christians. I cannot do that. My humanity, which is my core identity, is not something for some sick dehumanizing people to toy with.
I know this is an old post, but I just stumbled upon it.
I was raised in a conservative Christian home in the “Deep South.” Other than my grandmother, I didn’t really know any non-Christian people until I was an adult. I realize that my viewpoint of Christianity is limited by my experiences, but because of private school, I did encounter families from MANY conservative churches (not just a small sampling).
I feel like my overall experience with Christianity has been negative and the source of a lot of pain in my life. I wish I had been exposed to a more loving and nonjudgmental form of Christianity because my experiences with conservative Christianity has led me to see so many inconsistencies in the belief system that I’ve lost my faith. I consider myself open, but I’m definitely an atheist at this point in my life. I wouldn’t say this is something I’m particularly happy about, however. I’m almost jealous of people who can believe in God and are Christians because I see a lot of positive benefits that can come from being a Christian. I just feel like someone spilled the beans to me that “Santa isn’t real.” I don’t see how I can pretend he exists without trying to delude myself. Of COURSE I want to believe that there is a loving Heavenly Father who loves me unconditionally and is “working all things for good.” I also haven’t become an atheist overnight or without a lot of experience and thought. I don’t even feel like I “chose” to be an atheist. I feel like I am just a person who happened to witness facts and situations that made me see that Christianity, the Bible, and what it says about God just doesn’t add up.
For my experience, I was unloved and judged in pretty much every significant Christian experience in my life until I was eventually nearly driven to suicide in my early 20s. I’m talking about pretty much all of my experiences (since I only knew Christians). My whole life was basically just being treated badly by Christians until I almost killed myself because I couldn’t handle the pain anymore.
Growing up, I was taught that Christians were sinners like everyone else, but that the Holy Spirit begins a process of sanctification in every person. Because of this, and because Christians want to please God, love others, and treat people like Jesus treated people, Christians stand out like a light in the world that points people to Jesus. People are magnetically drawn to Jesus because they just sense something “different” about Christians – a peace, a love, etc.
I could go on and on about factual inconsistencies and the illogical logic that I think is going on in the Bible and Christianity, but those things honestly aren’t even the things that led me to lose my faith. What led me to lose my faith is basically this: if God is real, if he has power, if He really changes people and Christianity is real, then Christians would be more kind and loving. Christians would be different.
Every time I talk about this, Christians explain this away by saying something like “we are just flawed people and we sin and let you down but you will never be able to experience God’s love if you’re looking for it in flawed people. Look to God; don’t look at people.” This is honestly really starting to upset me because it’s just “passing the buck” onto a “sinful nature” rather than taking a good look at what on earth is going on here in Christianity today.
I have NEVER looked to any Christians in my life for perfect treatment. All I’ve ever wanted is for the Christians in my life to have a normal and healthy level of consideration and care for me, and to actually CARE about my feelings if they do something inconsiderate or selfish that hurts me. Kids learn how to start doing this when they are in Preschool – it’s pretty basic! “Ow, you hit me!” “Johnny, apologize for hitting Toby!!” “I’m sorry Toby” “it’s ok, Johnny!” *play resumes*
But those basic fundamentals of healthy human relations have escaped the Christians in my life time and time again. And time and time again, they use CHRISTIANITY (of all things!) to justify their actions as actually being good! They are able to twist good teachings of Christianity to justify their bad behavior in times when nobody who is non-religious ever could ever manage to justify the same behavior. (All you really have to say to justify a behavior is say “God led me to do it” or “God gave me the authority to do it” etc.). I have seen Christianity be more of a force for evil than a force for good.
Based on what I see in the world, people are just people and there is really no difference between Christians and non-Christians. I’ve met some really bad non-Christians and some really bad Christians. I’ve met Christians who use their faith to become better people and to make the world a better place, and I’ve met Christians who use Christianity to judge other people and serve themselves (to have a regular social group and feel like they are good people). (Sadly, I haven’t met very many Christians who aren’t judgmental, but some of my closest friends are Christians and the most loving and awesome people I know, so I am able to say that there are great Christians who do use it for good).
Mostly, I’m just left wanting to shake the whole Deep South and conservative branch of Christianity in the shoulders and say what is the point of what you are doing???? I just don’t understand what the point of even being a Christian is if you barely know any non-Christians and you don’t treat people better than non-Christians treat people. Isn’t the whole point of being a Christian about shining a light into the world, being loving to others, serving others and making a difference???? But instead, I see Christians make it all about themselves and instead of loving – truly LOVING – other people and learning how to do that better, it is all about a club where people act like nasty children who can hardly get along with themselves and constantly split off into their own separate cliques because they disagree with each other about something that is (in the grand scheme) entirely silly. If Christians can’t even get along with each other and THAT’s their big struggle in trying to be like Christ, doesn’t that say something? You have two people whose goal in life is *supposedly* to be like Christ, with the added bonus of having a supernatural force for good living inside of them that gives them a turbo charge of goodness if they ask for it (shout out, Holy Spirit!). They should be able to get along and not eat each other for breakfast, no? It just seems like Christianity today is completely missing the point.
P.S. – I flat out do not comprehend the lack of love and empathy that comes behind comments like “well us being judgmental and telling you the truth IS love.” I’ve seen and read countless outpourings of pain and suffering only receive the most thoughtless and calloused responses coming from Christians in the name of “speaking the truth” or “being right.” I am dumbfounded and don’t know how to break through to someone who justifies UNLOVING, thoughtless and non-compassionate behavior as actually being loving. It’s like trying to convince an abusive husband that believes giving his wife a black eye is being loving (“because she deserves it!”). How do you teach other people what “loving people well” really looks like when they are wrongly convinced that unloving behavior is loving?
It’s all super sad.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
ABA –
Those points are well-articulated and sobering for me. Thank you for taking the time to write this comment. You have made more aware that my greatest witness is demonstrating love toward others. Thank you.
ABA, I just wanted to share that I could have written so much of what you share here myself. I too was raised conservative Christian, with much of my time in the South too, and my experience was just so so much like yours. And the greatest pain in my life has come from Christians and Christianity too. I just wanted to say that I hope you keep seeking your own truth and following your heart. There are many spirits just like us out there who have a desire for truth and faith and love, but have suffered the confusing path of being raised in a belief system that claims to be truth and faith and love, while embodying the opposite. My wish is that we don’t let the darkness we have experienced in Christianity keep us from finding the light and love within ourselves and sharing it with others. Sending love to you <3
Dear ABA,
I hear your pain in your post. I’m a school counselor and I so often grieve for my students who are stripped of their desire to know Jesus because He is being represented by mean spirited people. If we are Christians, “little Christs”, then we are to be copying the teachings, the attitudes of Jesus. So much of what I see Christians doing wrong today ( and let me say that I see many doing things RIGHT) is due to their lack of knowledge of Jesus, himself. Often believers depend on their spiritual leader to tell them what they believe and how to live it, rather than reading the Manual (the Bible) themselves. I will not hesitate to let others know about God’s love, through his son Jesus, but unless I am willing to have a loving relationship with the others I share this “Good News” with, then I am a clanging gong (only making a noise).
I’m so sorry you have been hurt. I hope and pray there will be a day you will allow God to wrap you in his ever loving arms and heal your heartbreak. He loves you with an everlasting love and nothing you believe or think or do will ever change that.
Thom, those comments up top are mine. I’d like to thank you for 1) not deleting them out-of-hand, 2) thoughtfully considering them, and 3) demonstrating that a non-Christian’s perspective can be taken seriously, even when the content is not complimentary. You seem like a genuinely nice person, and yeah, I’ll bust your chops, but I do wish you well. If I thought your mind was thoroughly closed, I wouldn’t waste your time with my replies – I’d just go somewhere else where people are able to have a discussion.
For your commentariat, I realize that a person is necessarily limited. You can only juggle so many friends at one time without downgrading them to acquaintances. Friendships require investment of time, energy, and self. There are only so many hours in a day. And people seek as friends those they have a lot in common with. So I understand that Christians will want to be friends primarily with fellow Christians, because they have so much in common. That’s *fine* – I have no problem with that. That’s normal. Likewise, I understand that their religion is often so important to them that a non-Christian will appear to have nothing important in common with them – that’s fine, too. So many people in the world; we can’t each be friends with them all.
If someone wants to be friends with me, if that person wants me to change, we’re finished. Because I am who I am – I don’t *want* to be any different! This is who I am, and I’m very happy as-is. A key requirement of friendship is acceptance; if you can’t accept a person as-is and embrace that person in his/her entirety, no changes required, then please just leave that person alone – you’re going to do far more harm than good.
How would YOU feel if you were around people who thought you should become someone else? What effect would that have on YOUR self-image, confidence, and self-esteem? Dr. Gabor Maté, in his book “In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts” (it’s about addiction, available online in pdf form for free), touches on the concept of “unconditional positive regard.” That means accepting the person as-is and not only not *trying* to change him/her, but not *WANTING* to change him/her! Embracing this particular individual in all his/her facets of being, wanting to understand more, appreciate more, learn more. Considering this person’s company a gift, a treat, a joy. THIS is unconditional love.
I realize Christians typically have no conception of unconditional love, because their god and jesus are absolutely conditional with all their rules about who gets “saved” etc. Unless you’re a Universalist, you believe god’s love is conditional. But conditional love isn’t REALLY love; it’s manipulation, and it’s harmful rather than nurturing and healing. If people could approach others with the openness of heart that they simply want to learn about the other person, without this idea of “Just what and how much do I have to do before I can expect the other person to listen the way I want him/her to to my evangelizing sales pitch?”, how much healthier would our relationships be?
One of the nice things about being non-religious is that I can just *be* with others rather than feeling that I should be doing my best to evangelize them. I don’t have to be looking for that opening in conversation where I can insert my sales pitch, or even figure out where I’m going to “casually” drop a reference to my religion. There’s no expectation of the other person except that we enjoy each other’s company; I have no desire to change the other person in any way. And that enables me to communicate honestly with others, in a way no evangelist could possibly understand.
Blanche –
The purpose of this post is to see the perspective of those who aren’t Christians. You know that perspective far better than I do. I know you have irked some with your comments, but that’s okay. Your comments represent the word in which we live. If we Christians can’t listen to people who believe differently than we do, we must be insecure and insincere in our faith. So . . thank you for interacting with us. Yes, you and I have very different perspectives and beliefs, but I do sincerely appreciate your entering this weird blog of mine. Perhaps we will meet one day. I will be prepared to duck if you try to bust my chops!
My wife and I are Asatru(northern heathanism/paganism), and my youngest sister is as well. I have really good Christian friends that i have been able to have deep conversations about world view and ideology, they are the minority and they are the examples Christians SHOULD follow. When we talk about worldview and ideology we both put passion on the back burner and find commonalities between our individual beliefs. They respect that we are not Christian and feel no need to try to hammer that ideology in to our heads. Just as well I respect that they are Christian and have no need nor want for our Gods and Goddesses. I do not need nor want someone trying to hammer their worldview into my head. I grew up in the Deep South so being anything other than Christian growing up was not an option (unless I wanted to get in MORE fights than I already did). People of other ideologies ARE going to judge you by your actions, and by how you treat others. And people can say “well only God can judge me” sure, i guess; but I am judging them right now because they’re being a jerk, and if you truly understood Christianity’s history people wouldn’t be afraid that my sister is going to give their children demons, and they’d also understand that the pentacle around my wife’s neck isn’t Satan worship. The absolute biggest thing that annoys/ angers me to no end are Christians that refuse to have a balance of rational thinking and faith, and use their faith as a shield to protect their shaky ideology from rational thought. If you have a faith and you can logically work your way through your faith, rejecting things that are out dated and embracing things that still apply, your faith will then be stronger for it. For instance, just for instance my ideological ancestors used to do human sacrifices in the dark ages. We don’t do that anymore(obviously) it’s out dated, archaic, and wrong beyond explanation and we understand that. In the same light i think Christians should re-evaluate their stances on homosexuality and gender identity instead of alienating groups of people who differentiate from your norm. Stop trying to put your religion into law, you’d think it was religious oppression if i tried to push one of the nine noble virtues of Odinnic Rite into American law wouldn’t you? Christians definitely would.
I just found this blog yesterday. I began searching the internet for similar stories to mine, and thankfully stumbled across this site. For a long time I considered myself Christian. I read the Bible, I sat in the pew, I gave to coffers, I prayed. But recently I lost my faith.
I started attending a large Christian university about a year ago. At first I enjoyed the Biblical aspects of learning. But then I started to encounter Christians who would challenge my beliefs to the point of calling me a liar, simply because my view differed from theirs. Not so drastically as to say that God didn’t exist, but on subtle things such as luck, and areas of life that are left to Christians to figure out, and not expressly defined in scripture.
I see blind spots in the Bible. While there are certain commandments that must be taken into consideration for every decision, on some things we are left to interpret how those commandments apply. For instance we are commanded to do right by one another, and love on another. But the right thing and love are both left for us to interpret. What is right for one person and loving to one person, could be harmful and ostracizing to another. The Bible express defines somethings, and expressly condemns others, but there are areas in the middle that cannot be judged wholly right or wrong by man. We can act with good intent, and pray that we are doing the right thing, but ultimately we don’t really know until judgment day comes.
Apparently this view makes me a liar, and a Godless heathen. I cannot take an absolutist stance on religion, because while it is part of my faith to share God’s word, it is not part of my belief system to condemn anyone to hell. I don’t get to decide who gets in to heaven, and who doesn’t. Scripture was penned by men, who also don’t decide who gets into heaven and who doesn’t.
Because I cannot take an absolutist stance, I find my grades have suffered, my interactions with professor have suffered, and my interactions with fellow students have suffered. Apparently I’m simply not Christian enough to be considered worthy of Christianity, because I decline the right to judge others. I believe that no matter what the Bible says, God is the ultimate decision maker, and his will supersedes the words in any book. Couple that with my view that the Bible was penned entirely by man, and that my faith is entrusted to God, not man… and I am left standing on the outside.
With so many people “of faith” denying my right to see faith in my own way, I am left wanting to walk away from it altogether.
To be quite frank, none of us have ever heard God speak in this life. All we have is the trust that the men who penned the Bible did hear God’s will. But ultimately we trust in the Bible because the Bible says it has spiritual authority. None of us were alive when the Bible was written. None of us know for certain that the events portrayed in scripture actually happened. Have any of you ever met Jesus? Can you say with absolute certainty, proving the case and leaving absolutely no room for dissension that Jesus actually existed? IF you were called into a court of law and had to prove the case for Christianity, with the exception of the Bible, what evidence could you offer? Eyewitness testimony? DNA? Fingerprints? Video? Audio? Photographs?
I certainly couldn’t prove the case. All I have is the hope that the stories in the Bible are real and that the Creator exists, The faith that the men who penned Scripture were actually witness to the events they describe, and trust that God is my salvation.
Faith, hope, and trust are things I am willing to put my eternal soul at stake for. But not things I am willing to condemn someone else for. I simply do no know enough to say some one is going to hell. I simply cannot be absolute in the condemnation of others. I simply cannot say for sure that I am right, I can only have faith that I am. Apparently for the majority of Christians I have interacted with, that isn’t good enough. You either believe that non-believers are going to hell, or you are condemned to hell yourself.
Apparently it is within reason to doubt men and women you encounter on a daily basis, but completely unreasonable to doubt men who died thousands of years before you were ever born. If you are not absolute you are nothing? I find this all to be terribly disheartening and destructive to my faith. IF anything Christians have pushed me farther from faith then my doubts ever could have.
Aaron, I’m so sorry to hear about your difficulties. You sound like a very kind-hearted, thoughtful, caring person – it’s a shame there’s apparently so little regard for such qualities within Christianity. Do I read correctly that your professors are down-grading you because you don’t believe exactly as they do? Perhaps you could transfer to a state school, get rid of the Christianity in education altogether.
I’m nonreligious – an atheist, in fact – but perhaps you might look into the “emerging church”. It’s kinda grass-rootsy, but from what I’ve read, I think it might be a better fit for you than the unpleasant fundamentalists you’ve been surrounded by. You might even be able to link up online – I’ve found that the Internet is a wonderful tool for finding kindred spirits.
Best wishes and best of luck to you.
On Being Selfish, Not Really Interested in Others
I remember a rather outspoken evangelical Christian young woman I worked with – I’d just moved to town, and we went to a movie together. Each week she invited me to her church, and I didn’t want to offend her by saying “No thanks.” WHAT DID YOU SAY ALL THE OTHER TIMES YOU WERE INVITED?DID YOU TELL THE TRUTH?
As it was, I had Buddhist activities one Sunday and I was mentoring a young girl two other Sundays, but that theoretically left a Sunday open. We only worked together for 3 months, and it never worked out. I went to a different job. WHAT DIDN’T WORK OUT ABOUT THE JOB?
She showed up there one night, and jumped right to the church invite. No “Hey, how’ve you been? Haven’t seen you in a while!” Nope – just “Do you want to come to church with me this weekend?” Since I was on to her game, I decided to play. WHAT GAME DID SHE PLAY? DID SHE TRY TO TRICK YOU INTO GOING WITH HER OR LIE ABOUT HER INTENTIONS?
I said, “Sure, I’ll go to church with you, because I’m interested in seeing what you’re interested in. That’s what friends do, after all.
DID YOU REALLY SEE HER AS YOUR FRIEND?
DID YOU REALLY HAVE ANY INTEREST IN GOD’S PLAN FOR LIFE THROUGH JESUS THE CHRIST?
DID YOU RESPECT HER INTELLECTUALLY WITH YOUR WORDS AND NON VERBAL COMMUNICATIONS?
And I’m sure you’ll want to come with me to a Buddhist meeting to see what I’m interested in, right?” WERE YOU REALLY SURE THAT THAT WAS WHAT SHE WANTED?
IS THAT WHT YOU CHOSE THESE WORDS?
WE’RE YOU A TEMPTING TO TRAP HER WITH WORDS TO FORCE WHAT YOU WANTED TO SEE AND HEAR HAPPEN?
IS THIS WHAT FRIENDS ARE FOR?
“Oh no!” she replied. “I just love the Lord so much!”DID SHE EVER SHOW YOU ANYTHING DIFFERENT BEFORE?
DID SHE EVER LIE TO YOU ABOUT THIS?
“Well,” I said, “then there’s no point in me going to your church because I’m not interested in either becoming a Christian or joining your church.” I never saw her again.
DO YOU REALIZE THAT FROM WHAT WE HAVE READ FROM YOU THIS FAR, THAT THIS IS THE FIRST HONEST ANSWER YOU SHARED WITH HER AND THAT SHE RESPECTED YOUR WISHES WHEN YOU DID?
That’s how far Christian friendship extends IS THIS NOT A DESCRIPTION OF YOUR WAY TO DO FRIENDSHIP?
DID YOU NOT SAY THAT YOU PLAYED GAME WITH HER?
IS THIS GAME TRUE FRIENDSHIP? – I’ve seen it over and over and over. Christians look at everyone else as if they’ve got targets painted on their foreheads.
DID YOU TARGET HER FOR BEING OPEN ABOUT WHAT SHE BELIEVES AND MADE HERSELF VULNERABLE TO HER”FRIEND”?
Nobody likes being hunted down or treated like someone else’s project.
DID SHE EVER SAY SHE WAS HUNTING FOR TARGETS OR OFFER YOU TREATMENT AS IF YOU WERE A PROJECT?
IF SO, WHAT DID SHE SAY OR DO?
We don’t need to drop all our beliefs just to accept yours, and we don’t need to become more like you just to be acceptable people, worthy of being regarded as people instead of targets. Love does not seek to create clones of itself. Selfishness does.
WHAT IS LOVE AND HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT WANTS?
HOW DO YOU KNOW SELFISHNESS AND HOW IT WORKS OR NOT?
You know, using capslock for all your comments makes it look like you’re yelling at me. Buzz off.
A marvelous example of christianist privilege.
You are a member of a group that espouses unconditional love, yet you criticize the author for not treating the fake-friend proselytizer the way the fake-friend proselytizer should have treated her in the first place.
You are truly one sick puppy.